{
"type": "entry",
"published": "2024-02-15 15:23-0800",
"url": "https://gregorlove.com/2024/02/digging-paramores-cover/",
"category": [
"music"
],
"syndication": [
"https://bsky.app/profile/gregorlove.com/post/3klikea4pt422"
],
"content": {
"text": "Digging Paramore\u2019s cover of \u201cBurning Down the House\u201d and looking forward to the other covers on the upcoming Stop Making Sense tribute album.",
"html": "<p>Digging Paramore\u2019s cover of \u201c<a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_NKuuQ4Hy0\">Burning Down the House</a>\u201d and looking forward to the other covers on the upcoming <i><a href=\"https://variety.com/2024/music/news/stop-making-sense-tribute-album-a24-paramore-talking-heads-1235867596/\">Stop Making Sense</a></i> tribute album.</p>"
},
"author": {
"type": "card",
"name": "gRegor Morrill",
"url": "https://gregorlove.com/",
"photo": "https://gregorlove.com/site/assets/files/6268/profile-2021-square.300x0.jpg"
},
"post-type": "note",
"_id": "40298655",
"_source": "95"
}
A couple of days ago in an informal discussion in the #indieweb chat channel about how different people view #Mastodon, the #fediverse, or #Bluesky, and services like #Bridgy & #BridgyFed quite differently, I noted¹ that one big unspoken difference was how things on the web last over time, from the traditional persistent web, vs the newer and growing ephemeral web.
There is the publicly viewable #OpenWeb that many of us take for granted, meaning the web that is persistent, that lasts over time, and thanks to being #curlable, that the Internet Archive archives, and that a plurality of search engines see and index (robots.txt allowing). The HTML + CSS + media files declarative web.
Then there are the https APIs that return JSON "web", the thing that I’ve started calling the ephemeral web, the set of things that are here today, briefly, gone tomorrow. I’ve previously used the more provocative phrase js;dr (JavaScript required, Didn’t Read) for this #ephemeralWeb, yet like many things, it turns out there is a spectrum from ephemeral to persistent.
One popular example on that spectrum that’s closer to the ephemeral edge is anything on a Mastodon server running v4 (or later as of this writing) of the software. (I’m not bothering to discuss the examples of walled garden social media silos because I expect we will continue to see their demise² over time.)
For example, the Internet Archive version of the shutdown notice for the queer(.)af Mastodon server, is visibly blank:
Note: only a single Internet Archive snapshot was made of that post.
However if you View Source, you can find the entirety of that #queerAF post duplicated across a couple of invisible-to-the-user meta tags inside the raw HTML:
"**TL;DR: Queer[.]AF will close on 2024-04-12** …"
[.] added to avoid linking to a dead domain.
Note: such meta tags in js;dr pages were part of the motivation to specify metaformats.
To be clear, the shutdown of queer(.)af was a tragedy and not the fault of the creators, administrators etc., but rather one of the unfortunate outcomes of using some ccTLDs, country-code top level domains, that risk sudden draconian rules, domain renewal price hikes, or other unpredictable risks due to the politics, turmoil, regime changes etc. of the countries that administrate such domains.
Nearly the entirety of every Mastodon server, every post, every reply, is ephemeral.
When a Mastodon server shuts down, all its posts disappear from the surface of the web, forever.
Perhaps internet archeologists of the future will discover such dead permalinks, check the Internet Archive, find apparent desolation, and a few of them will be curious enough to use View Source tools to unearth parts of those posts, unintentionally preserved inside ceremonial meta tags next to dead scripts disconnected from databases and an empty shell of a body.
All reply-contexts of and replies to such posts and conversations lost, like threads unraveled from an ancient tapestry, scattered to the winds.
If you’re reading this post in your Mastodon reader, on either the website of your Mastodon account, or in a proprietary native client application, you should be able to click through, perhaps on the date-time stamp displayed to you, to view the original post on my website, where it is served in relatively simple declarative HTML + CSS with a bit of progressive enhancement script.
Because I serve declarative content, my posts are both findable across a variety of services & search engines, and archived by the Internet Archive. Even if my site goes down, snapshots or archives will be viewable elsewhere, with nearly the same fidelity of viewing them directly on my site.
This design for longevity is both deliberate, and the default for which the web was designed. It’s also one of the explicit principles in the IndieWeb community.
If that resonates with you, if creating, writing, & building things that last matter to you, choose web tools, services, and software that support the persistence & longevity of your work.
{
"type": "entry",
"published": "2024-02-15 13:18-0800",
"url": "https://tantek.com/2024/046/t1/the-ephemeral-web",
"category": [
"indieweb",
"Mastodon",
"fediverse",
"Bluesky",
"Bridgy",
"BridgyFed",
"OpenWeb",
"curlable",
"ephemeralWeb",
"queerAF",
"persistentWeb",
"longWeb",
"LongNow",
"100PostsOfIndieWeb",
"100Posts"
],
"content": {
"text": "A couple of days ago in an informal discussion in the #indieweb chat channel about how different people view #Mastodon, the #fediverse, or #Bluesky, and services like #Bridgy & #BridgyFed quite differently, I noted\u00b9 that one big unspoken difference was how things on the web last over time, from the traditional persistent web, vs the newer and growing ephemeral web.\n\nThere is the publicly viewable #OpenWeb that many of us take for granted, meaning the web that is persistent, that lasts over time, and thanks to being #curlable, that the Internet Archive archives, and that a plurality of search engines see and index (robots.txt allowing). The HTML + CSS + media files declarative web.\n\nThen there are the https APIs that return JSON \"web\", the thing that I\u2019ve started calling the ephemeral web, the set of things that are here today, briefly, gone tomorrow. I\u2019ve previously used the more provocative phrase js;dr (JavaScript required, Didn\u2019t Read) for this #ephemeralWeb, yet like many things, it turns out there is a spectrum from ephemeral to persistent.\n\n\nOne popular example on that spectrum that\u2019s closer to the ephemeral edge is anything on a Mastodon server running v4 (or later as of this writing) of the software. (I\u2019m not bothering to discuss the examples of walled garden social media silos because I expect we will continue to see their demise\u00b2 over time.)\n\nFor example, the Internet Archive version of the shutdown notice for the queer(.)af Mastodon server, is visibly blank:\n\nhttps://web.archive.org/web/20240112165635/https://queer.af/@postmaster/111733741786950083\n\nNote: only a single Internet Archive snapshot was made of that post.\n\nHowever if you View Source, you can find the entirety of that #queerAF post duplicated across a couple of invisible-to-the-user meta tags inside the raw HTML:\n\n\u00a0\"**TL;DR: Queer[.]AF will close on 2024-04-12** \u2026\" \u00a0\n\n[.] added to avoid linking to a dead domain.\n\nNote: such meta tags in js;dr pages were part of the motivation to specify metaformats.\n\nTo be clear, the shutdown of queer(.)af was a tragedy and not the fault of the creators, administrators etc., but rather one of the unfortunate outcomes of using some ccTLDs, country-code top level domains, that risk sudden draconian rules, domain renewal price hikes, or other unpredictable risks due to the politics, turmoil, regime changes etc. of the countries that administrate such domains.\n\n\nNearly the entirety of every Mastodon server, every post, every reply, is ephemeral.\n\nWhen a Mastodon server shuts down, all its posts disappear from the surface of the web, forever.\n\nPerhaps internet archeologists of the future will discover such dead permalinks, check the Internet Archive, find apparent desolation, and a few of them will be curious enough to use View Source tools to unearth parts of those posts, unintentionally preserved inside ceremonial meta tags next to dead scripts disconnected from databases and an empty shell of a body. \u00a0 \n\nAll reply-contexts of and replies to such posts and conversations lost, like threads unraveled from an ancient tapestry, scattered to the winds.\n\n\nIf you\u2019re reading this post in your Mastodon reader, on either the website of your Mastodon account, or in a proprietary native client application, you should be able to click through, perhaps on the date-time stamp displayed to you, to view the original post on my website, where it is served in relatively simple declarative HTML + CSS with a bit of progressive enhancement script.\n\nBecause I serve declarative content, my posts are both findable across a variety of services & search engines, and archived by the Internet Archive. Even if my site goes down, snapshots or archives will be viewable elsewhere, with nearly the same fidelity of viewing them directly on my site.\n\nThis design for longevity is both deliberate, and the default for which the web was designed. It\u2019s also one of the explicit principles in the IndieWeb community.\n\nIf that resonates with you, if creating, writing, & building things that last matter to you, choose web tools, services, and software that support the persistence & longevity of your work.\n\n#persistentWeb #longWeb #LongNow\n\nThis is post 10 of #100PostsOfIndieWeb. #100Posts\n\n\u2190 https://tantek.com/2024/035/t2/indiewebcamp-brighton-tickets-available\n\u2192 \ud83d\udd2e\n\n\nPost glossary:\n\nAPI (Application Programming Interface)\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/API\nBluesky\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/Bluesky\nBridgy\n\u00a0 https://brid.gy/\nBridgy Fed\n\u00a0 https://fed.brid.gy/\nccTLD (country-code top level domain)\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/ccTLD\ncurlable\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/curlable\ndeclarative web\n\u00a0 https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/webvision/full/#thedeclarativeweb\nInternet Archive\n\u00a0 https://archive.org/\njs;dr (JavaScript required; Didn\u2019t Read)\n\u00a0 https://tantek.com/2015/069/t1/js-dr-javascript-required-dead\nJSON\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/JSON\nlongevity\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/longevity\nMastodon\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/Mastodon\nmetaformats\n\u00a0 https://microformats.org/wiki/metaformats\npermalink\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/permalink\nprinciples in the IndieWeb community\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/principles\nprogressive enhancement\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/progressive_enhancement\nreply\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/reply\nreply-context\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/reply-context\nrobots.txt\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/robots_txt\nsocial media\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/social_media\nsilo\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/silo\nView Source\n\u00a0 https://firefox-source-docs.mozilla.org/devtools-user/view_source/index.html\n\n\n\u00b9 https://chat.indieweb.org/2024-02-13#t1707845454695700\n\u00b2 https://indieweb.org/site-deaths",
"html": "A couple of days ago in an informal discussion in the #<span class=\"p-category\">indieweb</span> chat channel about how different people view #<span class=\"p-category\">Mastodon</span>, the #<span class=\"p-category\">fediverse</span>, or #<span class=\"p-category\">Bluesky</span>, and services like #<span class=\"p-category\">Bridgy</span> & #<span class=\"p-category\">BridgyFed</span> quite differently, I noted<a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VU1_note-1\">\u00b9</a> that one big unspoken difference was how things on the web last over time, from the traditional persistent web, vs the newer and growing ephemeral web.<br /><br />There is the publicly viewable #<span class=\"p-category\">OpenWeb</span> that many of us take for granted, meaning the web that is persistent, that lasts over time, and thanks to being #<span class=\"p-category\">curlable</span>, that the Internet Archive archives, and that a plurality of search engines see and index (robots.txt allowing). The HTML + CSS + media files declarative web.<br /><br />Then there are the https APIs that return JSON \"web\", the thing that I\u2019ve started calling the ephemeral web, the set of things that are here today, briefly, gone tomorrow. I\u2019ve previously used the more provocative phrase js;dr (JavaScript required, Didn\u2019t Read) for this #<span class=\"p-category\">ephemeralWeb</span>, yet like many things, it turns out there is a spectrum from ephemeral to persistent.<br /><br /><br />One popular example on that spectrum that\u2019s closer to the ephemeral edge is anything on a Mastodon server running v4 (or later as of this writing) of the software. (I\u2019m not bothering to discuss the examples of walled garden social media silos because I expect we will continue to see their demise<a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VU1_note-2\">\u00b2</a> over time.)<br /><br />For example, the Internet Archive version of the shutdown notice for the queer(.)af Mastodon server, is visibly blank:<br /><br /><a href=\"https://web.archive.org/web/20240112165635/https://queer.af/@postmaster/111733741786950083\">https://web.archive.org/web/20240112165635/https://queer.af/@postmaster/111733741786950083</a><br /><br />Note: only a single Internet Archive snapshot was made of that post.<br /><br />However if you View Source, you can find the entirety of that #<span class=\"p-category\">queerAF</span> post duplicated across a couple of invisible-to-the-user meta tags inside the raw HTML:<br /><br />\u00a0\"**TL;DR: Queer[.]AF will close on 2024-04-12** \u2026\" \u00a0<br /><br />[.] added to avoid linking to a dead domain.<br /><br />Note: such meta tags in js;dr pages were part of the motivation to specify metaformats.<br /><br />To be clear, the shutdown of queer(.)af was a tragedy and not the fault of the creators, administrators etc., but rather one of the unfortunate outcomes of using some ccTLDs, country-code top level domains, that risk sudden draconian rules, domain renewal price hikes, or other unpredictable risks due to the politics, turmoil, regime changes etc. of the countries that administrate such domains.<br /><br /><br />Nearly the entirety of every Mastodon server, every post, every reply, is ephemeral.<br /><br />When a Mastodon server shuts down, all its posts disappear from the surface of the web, forever.<br /><br />Perhaps internet archeologists of the future will discover such dead permalinks, check the Internet Archive, find apparent desolation, and a few of them will be curious enough to use View Source tools to unearth parts of those posts, unintentionally preserved inside ceremonial meta tags next to dead scripts disconnected from databases and an empty shell of a body. \u00a0 <br /><br />All reply-contexts of and replies to such posts and conversations lost, like threads unraveled from an ancient tapestry, scattered to the winds.<br /><br /><br />If you\u2019re reading this post in your Mastodon reader, on either the website of your Mastodon account, or in a proprietary native client application, you should be able to click through, perhaps on the date-time stamp displayed to you, to view the original post on my website, where it is served in relatively simple declarative HTML + CSS with a bit of progressive enhancement script.<br /><br />Because I serve declarative content, my posts are both findable across a variety of services & search engines, and archived by the Internet Archive. Even if my site goes down, snapshots or archives will be viewable elsewhere, with nearly the same fidelity of viewing them directly on my site.<br /><br />This design for longevity is both deliberate, and the default for which the web was designed. It\u2019s also one of the explicit principles in the IndieWeb community.<br /><br />If that resonates with you, if creating, writing, & building things that last matter to you, choose web tools, services, and software that support the persistence & longevity of your work.<br /><br />#<span class=\"p-category\">persistentWeb</span> #<span class=\"p-category\">longWeb</span> #<span class=\"p-category\">LongNow</span><br /><br />This is post 10 of #<span class=\"p-category\">100PostsOfIndieWeb</span>. #<span class=\"p-category\">100Posts</span><br /><br />\u2190 <a href=\"https://tantek.com/2024/035/t2/indiewebcamp-brighton-tickets-available\">https://tantek.com/2024/035/t2/indiewebcamp-brighton-tickets-available</a><br />\u2192 \ud83d\udd2e<br /><br /><br />Post glossary:<br /><br />API (Application Programming Interface)<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/API\">https://indieweb.org/API</a><br />Bluesky<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/Bluesky\">https://indieweb.org/Bluesky</a><br />Bridgy<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://brid.gy/\">https://brid.gy/</a><br />Bridgy Fed<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://fed.brid.gy/\">https://fed.brid.gy/</a><br />ccTLD (country-code top level domain)<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/ccTLD\">https://indieweb.org/ccTLD</a><br />curlable<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/curlable\">https://indieweb.org/curlable</a><br />declarative web<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/webvision/full/#thedeclarativeweb\">https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/webvision/full/#thedeclarativeweb</a><br />Internet Archive<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://archive.org/\">https://archive.org/</a><br />js;dr (JavaScript required; Didn\u2019t Read)<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://tantek.com/2015/069/t1/js-dr-javascript-required-dead\">https://tantek.com/2015/069/t1/js-dr-javascript-required-dead</a><br />JSON<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/JSON\">https://indieweb.org/JSON</a><br />longevity<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/longevity\">https://indieweb.org/longevity</a><br />Mastodon<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/Mastodon\">https://indieweb.org/Mastodon</a><br />metaformats<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://microformats.org/wiki/metaformats\">https://microformats.org/wiki/metaformats</a><br />permalink<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/permalink\">https://indieweb.org/permalink</a><br />principles in the IndieWeb community<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/principles\">https://indieweb.org/principles</a><br />progressive enhancement<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/progressive_enhancement\">https://indieweb.org/progressive_enhancement</a><br />reply<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/reply\">https://indieweb.org/reply</a><br />reply-context<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/reply-context\">https://indieweb.org/reply-context</a><br />robots.txt<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/robots_txt\">https://indieweb.org/robots_txt</a><br />social media<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/social_media\">https://indieweb.org/social_media</a><br />silo<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/silo\">https://indieweb.org/silo</a><br />View Source<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://firefox-source-docs.mozilla.org/devtools-user/view_source/index.html\">https://firefox-source-docs.mozilla.org/devtools-user/view_source/index.html</a><br /><br /><br /><a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VU1_ref-1\">\u00b9</a> <a href=\"https://chat.indieweb.org/2024-02-13#t1707845454695700\">https://chat.indieweb.org/2024-02-13#t1707845454695700</a><br /><a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VU1_ref-2\">\u00b2</a> <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/site-deaths\">https://indieweb.org/site-deaths</a>"
},
"author": {
"type": "card",
"name": "Tantek \u00c7elik",
"url": "https://tantek.com/",
"photo": "https://tantek.com/photo.jpg"
},
"post-type": "note",
"_id": "40298587",
"_source": "2460"
}
Hard to believe it’s been 20 years of iterating and evolving microformats, to #microformats2, growing adoption as #IndieWeb building blocks, distributed verification (those green checkmarks) in #Mastodon and across the #fediverse, and implementing metaformats parsing to standardize parsing various meta tags for link previews into equivalent microformats2.
From last year’s activity, it’s clear there’s more use-cases, implementer interest, and community activity than ever. Looking forward to seeing what we can build in 2024.
{
"type": "entry",
"published": "2024-02-13 22:03-0800",
"url": "https://tantek.com/2024/044/t1/twenty-years-microformats-updates",
"category": [
"microformats",
"metaformats",
"microformats2",
"IndieWeb",
"Mastodon",
"fediverse"
],
"content": {
"text": "Twenty years and two days ago, @KevinMarks.com (@KevinMarks@xoxo.zone @KevinMarks) and I introduced #microformats in a conference presentation.\n\nI wrote a long retrospective last year: https://tantek.com/2023/047/t1/nineteen-years-microformats\n\nSince that post nearly a year ago, here are the top three updates & interesting developments in microformats:\n\n1. Growing rel=me adoption for distributed verification (\u2705 in Mastodon etc.)\n\u00a0* Wikipedia: https://tantek.com/2023/139/t1/wikipedia-supports-indieweb-rel-me\n\u00a0* Threads: https://tantek.com/2023/234/t1/threads-supports-indieweb-rel-me\n\u00a0* omg.lol profile links by default: https://home.omg.lol/info/profile-items\n\n2. A proposal to merge h-review into h-entry, since reviews are in practice always entries with a bit more information:\n\u00a0* https://github.com/microformats/h-entry/issues/32\n\u00a0\n3. #metaformats adoptions, implementations, and iteration\n\u00a0* There was growing practical interest in metaformats, so I updated the spec accordingly\n\u00a0* A half dozen implementations shipped: https://indieweb.org/metaformats#IndieWeb_Examples\n\u00a0* Active discussion for evolving metaformats to support more real world use-cases: https://github.com/microformats/metaformats/issues\n\nHard to believe it\u2019s been 20 years of iterating and evolving microformats, to #microformats2, growing adoption as #IndieWeb building blocks, distributed verification (those green checkmarks) in #Mastodon and across the #fediverse, and implementing metaformats parsing to standardize parsing various meta tags for link previews into equivalent microformats2.\n\nFrom last year\u2019s activity, it\u2019s clear there\u2019s more use-cases, implementer interest, and community activity than ever. \u00a0Looking forward to seeing what we can build in 2024.\n\n\nPost Glossary\n\nh-entry\n\u00a0 https://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry\nh-review\n\u00a0 https://microformats.org/wiki/h-review\nlink-preview\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/link-preview\nmetaformats\n\u00a0 https://microformats.org/wiki/metaformats\nmicroformats\n\u00a0 https://microformats.org/wiki/\nmicroformats2\n\u00a0 https://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2\nrel-me\n\u00a0 https://microformats.org/wiki/rel-me",
"html": "Twenty years and two days ago, <a href=\"https://KevinMarks.com\">@KevinMarks.com</a> (<a href=\"https://xoxo.zone/@KevinMarks\">@KevinMarks@xoxo.zone</a> <a class=\"h-cassis-username\" href=\"https://twitter.com/KevinMarks\">@KevinMarks</a>) and I introduced #<span class=\"p-category\">microformats</span> in a conference presentation.<br /><br />I wrote a long retrospective last year: <a href=\"https://tantek.com/2023/047/t1/nineteen-years-microformats\">https://tantek.com/2023/047/t1/nineteen-years-microformats</a><br /><br />Since that post nearly a year ago, here are the top three updates & interesting developments in microformats:<br /><br />1. Growing rel=me adoption for distributed verification (\u2705 in Mastodon etc.)<br />\u00a0* Wikipedia: <a href=\"https://tantek.com/2023/139/t1/wikipedia-supports-indieweb-rel-me\">https://tantek.com/2023/139/t1/wikipedia-supports-indieweb-rel-me</a><br />\u00a0* Threads: <a href=\"https://tantek.com/2023/234/t1/threads-supports-indieweb-rel-me\">https://tantek.com/2023/234/t1/threads-supports-indieweb-rel-me</a><br />\u00a0* <a href=\"http://omg.lol\">omg.lol</a> profile links by default: <a href=\"https://home.omg.lol/info/profile-items\">https://home.omg.lol/info/profile-items</a><br /><br />2. A proposal to merge h-review into h-entry, since reviews are in practice always entries with a bit more information:<br />\u00a0* <a href=\"https://github.com/microformats/h-entry/issues/32\">https://github.com/microformats/h-entry/issues/32</a><br />\u00a0<br />3. #<span class=\"p-category\">metaformats</span> adoptions, implementations, and iteration<br />\u00a0* There was growing practical interest in metaformats, so I updated the spec accordingly<br />\u00a0* A half dozen implementations shipped: <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/metaformats#IndieWeb_Examples\">https://indieweb.org/metaformats#IndieWeb_Examples</a><br />\u00a0* Active discussion for evolving metaformats to support more real world use-cases: <a href=\"https://github.com/microformats/metaformats/issues\">https://github.com/microformats/metaformats/issues</a><br /><br />Hard to believe it\u2019s been 20 years of iterating and evolving microformats, to #<span class=\"p-category\">microformats2</span>, growing adoption as #<span class=\"p-category\">IndieWeb</span> building blocks, distributed verification (those green checkmarks) in #<span class=\"p-category\">Mastodon</span> and across the #<span class=\"p-category\">fediverse</span>, and implementing metaformats parsing to standardize parsing various meta tags for link previews into equivalent microformats2.<br /><br />From last year\u2019s activity, it\u2019s clear there\u2019s more use-cases, implementer interest, and community activity than ever. \u00a0Looking forward to seeing what we can build in 2024.<br /><br /><br />Post Glossary<br /><br />h-entry<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry\">https://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry</a><br />h-review<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://microformats.org/wiki/h-review\">https://microformats.org/wiki/h-review</a><br />link-preview<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/link-preview\">https://indieweb.org/link-preview</a><br />metaformats<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://microformats.org/wiki/metaformats\">https://microformats.org/wiki/metaformats</a><br />microformats<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://microformats.org/wiki/\">https://microformats.org/wiki/</a><br />microformats2<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2\">https://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2</a><br />rel-me<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://microformats.org/wiki/rel-me\">https://microformats.org/wiki/rel-me</a>"
},
"author": {
"type": "card",
"name": "Tantek \u00c7elik",
"url": "https://tantek.com/",
"photo": "https://tantek.com/photo.jpg"
},
"post-type": "note",
"_id": "40288901",
"_source": "2460"
}
{
"type": "entry",
"author": {
"name": "Jared White",
"url": "https://jaredwhite.com/",
"photo": null
},
"url": "https://jaredwhite.com/videos/20240213/midsummer-adventures-at-mt-hood",
"published": "2024-02-13T20:48:14-08:00",
"content": {
"html": "<img alt=\"\" src=\"https://res.cloudinary.com/mariposta/image/upload/w_1200,c_limit,q_65/Midsummer_Adventures_at_Mt._Hood_rrdwhd.jpg\" /><p>You can rarely go wrong visiting the tallest mountain in Oregon and a true jewel of the Cascades: Mt. Hood. This time, I visited in August 2023, taking the ski lifts up the slope from Timberline Lodge and then hiking back down while enjoying the epic views. Then I dropped by Trillium Lake for the first time. Wow! This location was definitely worth the hype. Gotta go back\u2026</p>\n<p><a href=\"https://jaredwhite.com/videos/20240213/midsummer-adventures-at-mt-hood\">Watch the Video Here</a></p>",
"text": "You can rarely go wrong visiting the tallest mountain in Oregon and a true jewel of the Cascades: Mt. Hood. This time, I visited in August 2023, taking the ski lifts up the slope from Timberline Lodge and then hiking back down while enjoying the epic views. Then I dropped by Trillium Lake for the first time. Wow! This location was definitely worth the hype. Gotta go back\u2026\nWatch the Video Here"
},
"name": "Video: Midsummer Adventures at Mt. Hood",
"post-type": "article",
"_id": "40283135",
"_source": "2783"
}
Hard to believe it’s been 20 years of iterating and evolving microformats, to #microformats2, growing adoption as #IndieWeb building blocks, distributed verification (those green checkmarks) in #Mastodon and across the #fediverse, and implementing metaformats parsing to standardize parsing various meta tags for link previews into equivalent microformats2.
From last year’s activity, it’s clear there’s more use-cases, implementer interest, and community activity than ever. Looking forward to seeing what we can build in 2024.
{
"type": "entry",
"published": "2024-02-13 22:03-0800",
"url": "https://tantek.com/2024/044/t1/twenty-years-microformats",
"category": [
"microformats",
"metaformats",
"microformats2",
"IndieWeb",
"Mastodon",
"fediverse"
],
"content": {
"text": "Twenty years and two days ago, @KevinMarks.com (@KevinMarks@xoxo.zone @KevinMarks) and I introduced #microformats in a conference presentation.\n\nI wrote a long retrospective last year: https://tantek.com/2023/047/t1/nineteen-years-microformats\n\nSince that update nearly a year ago, here are the top three interesting developments in microformats:\n\n1. Growing rel=me adoption for distributed verification:\n\u00a0* Wikipedia: https://tantek.com/2023/139/t1/wikipedia-supports-indieweb-rel-me\n\u00a0* Threads: https://tantek.com/2023/234/t1/threads-supports-indieweb-rel-me\n\u00a0* omg.lol profile links by default: https://home.omg.lol/info/profile-items\n\n2. A proposal to merge h-review into h-entry, since reviews are in practice always entries with a bit more information:\n\u00a0* https://github.com/microformats/h-entry/issues/32\n\u00a0\n3. #metaformats adoptions, implementations, and iteration\n\u00a0* There was growing practical interest in metaformats, so I updated the spec accordingly\n\u00a0* A half dozen implementations shipped: https://indieweb.org/metaformats#IndieWeb_Examples\n\u00a0* Active discussion for evolving metaformats to support more real world use-cases: https://github.com/microformats/metaformats/issues\n\nHard to believe it\u2019s been 20 years of iterating and evolving microformats, to #microformats2, growing adoption as #IndieWeb building blocks, distributed verification (those green checkmarks) in #Mastodon and across the #fediverse, and implementing metaformats parsing to standardize parsing various meta tags for link previews into equivalent microformats2.\n\nFrom last year\u2019s activity, it\u2019s clear there\u2019s more use-cases, implementer interest, and community activity than ever. \u00a0Looking forward to seeing what we can build in 2024.\n\n\nPost Glossary\n\nh-entry\n\u00a0 https://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry\nh-review\n\u00a0 https://microformats.org/wiki/h-review\nlink-preview\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/link-preview\nmetaformats\n\u00a0 https://microformats.org/wiki/metaformats\nmicroformats\n\u00a0 https://microformats.org/wiki/\nmicroformats2\n\u00a0 https://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2\nrel-me\n\u00a0 https://microformats.org/wiki/rel-me",
"html": "Twenty years and two days ago, <a href=\"https://KevinMarks.com\">@KevinMarks.com</a> (<a href=\"https://xoxo.zone/@KevinMarks\">@KevinMarks@xoxo.zone</a> <a class=\"h-cassis-username\" href=\"https://twitter.com/KevinMarks\">@KevinMarks</a>) and I introduced #<span class=\"p-category\">microformats</span> in a conference presentation.<br /><br />I wrote a long retrospective last year: <a href=\"https://tantek.com/2023/047/t1/nineteen-years-microformats\">https://tantek.com/2023/047/t1/nineteen-years-microformats</a><br /><br />Since that update nearly a year ago, here are the top three interesting developments in microformats:<br /><br />1. Growing rel=me adoption for distributed verification:<br />\u00a0* Wikipedia: <a href=\"https://tantek.com/2023/139/t1/wikipedia-supports-indieweb-rel-me\">https://tantek.com/2023/139/t1/wikipedia-supports-indieweb-rel-me</a><br />\u00a0* Threads: <a href=\"https://tantek.com/2023/234/t1/threads-supports-indieweb-rel-me\">https://tantek.com/2023/234/t1/threads-supports-indieweb-rel-me</a><br />\u00a0* <a href=\"http://omg.lol\">omg.lol</a> profile links by default: <a href=\"https://home.omg.lol/info/profile-items\">https://home.omg.lol/info/profile-items</a><br /><br />2. A proposal to merge h-review into h-entry, since reviews are in practice always entries with a bit more information:<br />\u00a0* <a href=\"https://github.com/microformats/h-entry/issues/32\">https://github.com/microformats/h-entry/issues/32</a><br />\u00a0<br />3. #<span class=\"p-category\">metaformats</span> adoptions, implementations, and iteration<br />\u00a0* There was growing practical interest in metaformats, so I updated the spec accordingly<br />\u00a0* A half dozen implementations shipped: <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/metaformats#IndieWeb_Examples\">https://indieweb.org/metaformats#IndieWeb_Examples</a><br />\u00a0* Active discussion for evolving metaformats to support more real world use-cases: <a href=\"https://github.com/microformats/metaformats/issues\">https://github.com/microformats/metaformats/issues</a><br /><br />Hard to believe it\u2019s been 20 years of iterating and evolving microformats, to #<span class=\"p-category\">microformats2</span>, growing adoption as #<span class=\"p-category\">IndieWeb</span> building blocks, distributed verification (those green checkmarks) in #<span class=\"p-category\">Mastodon</span> and across the #<span class=\"p-category\">fediverse</span>, and implementing metaformats parsing to standardize parsing various meta tags for link previews into equivalent microformats2.<br /><br />From last year\u2019s activity, it\u2019s clear there\u2019s more use-cases, implementer interest, and community activity than ever. \u00a0Looking forward to seeing what we can build in 2024.<br /><br /><br />Post Glossary<br /><br />h-entry<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry\">https://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry</a><br />h-review<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://microformats.org/wiki/h-review\">https://microformats.org/wiki/h-review</a><br />link-preview<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/link-preview\">https://indieweb.org/link-preview</a><br />metaformats<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://microformats.org/wiki/metaformats\">https://microformats.org/wiki/metaformats</a><br />microformats<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://microformats.org/wiki/\">https://microformats.org/wiki/</a><br />microformats2<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2\">https://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2</a><br />rel-me<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://microformats.org/wiki/rel-me\">https://microformats.org/wiki/rel-me</a>"
},
"author": {
"type": "card",
"name": "Tantek \u00c7elik",
"url": "https://tantek.com/",
"photo": "https://tantek.com/photo.jpg"
},
"post-type": "note",
"_id": "40280052",
"_source": "2460"
}
{
"type": "entry",
"author": {
"name": null,
"url": "https://herestomwiththeweather.com/",
"photo": null
},
"url": "https://herestomwiththeweather.com/2024/02/10/phishing-mitigation-for-mastodon.social/",
"published": "2024-02-10T15:55:35+00:00",
"content": {
"html": "<p>When a person is already logged into a <a href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastodon_(social_network)\">mastodon</a> instance, if they visit some pages on their instance associated with a user from another server, they are not redirected to the remote server because it is easier to interact with the remote user with their existing local session. However, if a person without an account is just visiting or they have an account but are logged out, mastodon redirects them to the remote server presumably because mastodon doesn\u2019t know whether they have a local account and visiting the remote server will have the complete and authoritative data for that remote user.</p>\n\n<p>A welcome update to <a href=\"https://mastodon.social/\">mastodon.social</a> (included in 4.3.0-nightly) is a <a href=\"https://mastodon.social/@Gargron/111908524315478487\">warning</a> presented to visitors or logged out users before mastodon redirects them to a remote server for the original page. The <a href=\"https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/commit/b19ae521b7d28a76e8e1d8da8157e051e9d8de6c\">code</a> for <a href=\"https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/pull/27792\">Add confirmation when redirecting logged-out requests to permalink</a> is particularly relevant to mastodon.social compared to other fediverse instances as mastodon.social has become a relatively big target for phishing. It\u2019s a good bet that if someone is navigating the fediverse that their account is on mastodon.social. So, if an arbitrary victim is logged out of their mastodon.social account and visits a mastodon.social page belonging to the attacker, prior to this mitigation, mastodon.social would automatically redirect the victim to the attacker\u2019s page which might be a fake login form to trick the victim into submitting their login credentials to the attacker\u2019s site. Unfortunately, a significant percentage of people will submit the form.</p>\n\n<p>One could imagine mastodon.social maintaining a list of trusted servers for automatic redirects but that would be an undesirable hornet\u2019s nest and it\u2019s not a bad thing when web surfers are conscious of the trust boundaries on the web.</p>",
"text": "When a person is already logged into a mastodon instance, if they visit some pages on their instance associated with a user from another server, they are not redirected to the remote server because it is easier to interact with the remote user with their existing local session. However, if a person without an account is just visiting or they have an account but are logged out, mastodon redirects them to the remote server presumably because mastodon doesn\u2019t know whether they have a local account and visiting the remote server will have the complete and authoritative data for that remote user.\n\nA welcome update to mastodon.social (included in 4.3.0-nightly) is a warning presented to visitors or logged out users before mastodon redirects them to a remote server for the original page. The code for Add confirmation when redirecting logged-out requests to permalink is particularly relevant to mastodon.social compared to other fediverse instances as mastodon.social has become a relatively big target for phishing. It\u2019s a good bet that if someone is navigating the fediverse that their account is on mastodon.social. So, if an arbitrary victim is logged out of their mastodon.social account and visits a mastodon.social page belonging to the attacker, prior to this mitigation, mastodon.social would automatically redirect the victim to the attacker\u2019s page which might be a fake login form to trick the victim into submitting their login credentials to the attacker\u2019s site. Unfortunately, a significant percentage of people will submit the form.\n\nOne could imagine mastodon.social maintaining a list of trusted servers for automatic redirects but that would be an undesirable hornet\u2019s nest and it\u2019s not a bad thing when web surfers are conscious of the trust boundaries on the web."
},
"name": "Phishing Mitigation for Mastodon.social",
"post-type": "article",
"_id": "40250824",
"_source": "246"
}
{
"type": "entry",
"published": "2024-02-10T12:02:03-08:00",
"url": "https://aaronparecki.com/2024/02/10/8/kittens",
"category": [
"kittens"
],
"content": {
"text": "If kittens eat twice as much as adult cats, why does their food come in cans that are half the size? \ud83e\udd28",
"html": "If kittens eat twice as much as adult cats, why does their food come in cans that are half the size? <a href=\"https://aaronparecki.com/emoji/%F0%9F%A4%A8\">\ud83e\udd28</a>"
},
"author": {
"type": "card",
"name": "Aaron Parecki",
"url": "https://aaronparecki.com/",
"photo": "https://aperture-media.p3k.io/aaronparecki.com/41061f9de825966faa22e9c42830e1d4a614a321213b4575b9488aa93f89817a.jpg"
},
"post-type": "note",
"_id": "40248687",
"_source": "16"
}
{
"type": "entry",
"published": "2024-02-10T09:33:37-08:00",
"url": "https://nadreck.me/2024/02/durable-pseudonyms/",
"category": [
"social-computing",
"identity",
"social-media"
],
"name": "Durable Pseudonyms",
"content": {
"text": "An interesting piece by Alfred Moore over at The Conversation talking about \u201cOnline anonymity: study found \u2018stable pseudonyms\u2019 created a more civil environment than real user names\u201c. This hearkens back to a lot of thoughts I had about online identity back in the day \u2013 it\u2019s interesting to see newer studies examining the space. The basic gist is that when comparing online discourse using real-life names, pseudonyms, or \u201cdurable pseudonyms\u201d, stable pseudonyms led to notably more civil discussion.\n\n\n\n\nOur results suggest that the quality of comments was highest in the middle phase. There was a great improvement after the shift from easy or disposable anonymity to what we call \u201cdurable pseudonyms\u201d. But instead of improving further after the shift to the real-name phase, the quality of comments actually got worse \u2013 not as bad as in the first phase, but still worse\u00a0by our measure.\nAlfred Moore\n\n\n\n\nThis makes sense to me! I couldn\u2019t tell you why a stable pseudonym ends up hitting the sweet spot, but anecdotally, it matches my experiences. There needs to be enough friction to spinning up a new account that folks are reluctant to do it just to talk trash, but not so heavy a process that no one will sign up. Sounds like the study authors are not 100% sure why, either, though they have some hypotheses:\n\n\n\n\nWe don\u2019t know exactly what explains our results, but one possibility is that under durable pseudonyms the users orient their comments primarily at their fellow commentators as an audience. They then perhaps develop a concern for their own reputation within that forum, as has been\u00a0suggested elsewhere.\nAlfred Moore",
"html": "<p>An interesting piece by Alfred Moore over at <a href=\"https://theconversation.com/\">The Conversation</a> talking about \u201c<a href=\"https://theconversation.com/online-anonymity-study-found-stable-pseudonyms-created-a-more-civil-environment-than-real-user-names-171374\">Online anonymity: study found \u2018stable pseudonyms\u2019 created a more civil environment than real user names</a>\u201c. This hearkens back to a lot of thoughts I had about online identity back in the day \u2013 it\u2019s interesting to see newer studies examining the space. The basic gist is that when comparing online discourse using real-life names, pseudonyms, or \u201cdurable pseudonyms\u201d, stable pseudonyms led to notably more civil discussion.</p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote>\n<p>Our results suggest that the quality of comments was highest in the middle phase. There was a great improvement after the shift from easy or disposable anonymity to what we call \u201cdurable pseudonyms\u201d. But instead of improving further after the shift to the real-name phase, the quality of comments actually got worse \u2013 not as bad as in the first phase, but still worse\u00a0<a href=\"https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0032321719891385\">by our measure</a>.</p>\nAlfred Moore\n</blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>This makes sense to me! I couldn\u2019t tell you <em>why</em> a stable pseudonym ends up hitting the sweet spot, but anecdotally, it matches my experiences. There needs to be enough friction to spinning up a new account that folks are reluctant to do it just to talk trash, but not so heavy a process that no one will sign up. Sounds like the study authors are not 100% sure why, either, though they have some hypotheses:</p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote>\n<p>We don\u2019t know exactly what explains our results, but one possibility is that under durable pseudonyms the users orient their comments primarily at their fellow commentators as an audience. They then perhaps develop a concern for their own reputation within that forum, as has been\u00a0<a href=\"https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1430-9134.2001.00173.x\">suggested elsewhere</a>.</p>\nAlfred Moore\n</blockquote>"
},
"author": {
"type": "card",
"name": "Nadreck",
"url": "http://nadreck.me",
"photo": null
},
"post-type": "article",
"_id": "40247415",
"_source": "2935"
}
{
"type": "entry",
"published": "2024-02-09T01:45:49-08:00",
"url": "https://beesbuzz.biz/blog/6829-Bigscreen-Beyond-day-2",
"name": "Bigscreen Beyond day 2",
"content": {
"text": "I wasn\u2019t planning on getting into VR tonight but I ended up doing it anyway.\n\nThe Bigscreen folks suggested washing the facial interface gasket with soapy water, and that seems to have fixed the skin irritation. So there must have just been some residue left over.\n\nI also printed a Vive DAS adapter so now I have a much easier time putting the headset on and setting up the audio and so on. It ends up not sitting on my head quite right, though, and adjusting the fit to my eyes is a little more fiddly. Unfortunately the design of the BSB doesn\u2019t make it easy to put on a top support strap (the DAS adapter has a little dealybop for the DAS\u2019s top strap but I couldn\u2019t get it to stay attached with double-sided tape and I\u2019m not yet willing to use permanent adhesive) so my choices are either off-axis lenses or having it so tight it gives me a headache.\n\nI also ended up removing the lens inserts for now, and I\u2019ll wait for the QC-passing ones to arrive.\n\nEverything is just so sharp now. I like it.",
"html": "<p>I wasn\u2019t planning on getting into VR tonight but I ended up doing it anyway.</p><p>The Bigscreen folks suggested washing the facial interface gasket with soapy water, and that seems to have fixed the skin irritation. So there must have just been some residue left over.</p><p>I also printed a <a href=\"https://www.printables.com/model/692982-bigscreen-beyond-to-vive-deluxe-audio-strap-kit-v2\">Vive DAS adapter</a> so now I have a much easier time putting the headset on and setting up the audio and so on. It ends up not sitting on my head quite right, though, and adjusting the fit to my eyes is a little more fiddly. Unfortunately the design of the BSB doesn\u2019t make it easy to put on a top support strap (the DAS adapter has a little dealybop for the DAS\u2019s top strap but I couldn\u2019t get it to stay attached with double-sided tape and I\u2019m not yet willing to use permanent adhesive) so my choices are either off-axis lenses or having it so tight it gives me a headache.</p><p>I also ended up removing the lens inserts for now, and I\u2019ll wait for the QC-passing ones to arrive.</p><p>Everything is just so <em>sharp</em> now. I like it.</p>"
},
"author": {
"type": "card",
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I'm planning out my travel for the year, and now that Brisbane is scratched, I'm barely going to hit Alaska MVP Gold. And if I buy the annual lounge pass, even with the signup bonus discount, it will work out to about $35 per visit.
{
"type": "entry",
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"url": "https://aaronparecki.com/2024/02/07/17/travel",
"category": [
"travel"
],
"content": {
"text": "I'm planning out my travel for the year, and now that Brisbane is scratched, I'm barely going to hit Alaska MVP Gold. And if I buy the annual lounge pass, even with the signup bonus discount, it will work out to about $35 per visit."
},
"author": {
"type": "card",
"name": "Aaron Parecki",
"url": "https://aaronparecki.com/",
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Similar to @paulgraham.com (@paulg@mas.to@paulg)’s 2008 observation about trolls¹, there’s a sort of Gresham's Law of developers (vs users): developers are willing to use a forum with a lot of users in it, but users aren’t willing to use a forum with a lot of developer-speak.
Whether such forums are email lists, chat (IRC, #Matrix, #Slack, #Discord), or, well, online forums (#Reddit, #HackerNews), when discussions either start or shift into technical details, jargon, or acronyms, users (in a very broad sense) tend to stop participating, and sometimes leave, never to return.
Users in this context are anyone with a desire (or a preference) not to chat or even be bothered spending time reading about technical plumbing & #jargon, and see such discussions as a distraction at best, and more like noise to be avoided.
Paraphrasing Paul Graham again: once technical details, jargon, acronyms “take hold, it tends to become the dominant culture” and discourages users from showing up, discussing user-centric topics, or even staying in said forum.
The #IndieWeb community started in 2011 as a single #indiewebcamp IRC channel (no email list²) because it was tightly coupled to IndieWebCamp events, which were both highly technical and yet focused on actually making things work on your personal site that you need³, that you will use⁴ yourself. Conversations bridged real world use-cases and technical details.
It only took us five years after the first IndieWebCamp in Portland to recognize that the community had grown beyond the events, and had a clear need for a separate place for deep discussions of developer topics.
As part of renaming the community from IndieWebCamp to IndieWeb⁵, we created the #indieweb-dev (dev) channel for such technical topics like protocols, formats, tools, coding libraries, APIs, and any other acronyms or jargon.
The community did a good job of keeping technical topics in the dev channel, and encouraging new folks in the main #indieweb channel who started technical conversations to continue them in the dev channel.
Still, it was too easy for user-centric topics to veer into technical territory. It often felt more natural to continue a thread in the channel it started rather than break to another channel. There was also a need for regular community labor to nudge developer conversations to the developer chat channel.
We had already started documenting IndieWeb related jargon⁶ on the wiki and turned it into a MediaWiki Category so we could tag individual pages as jargon and have them automatically show-up in a list. Soon after, @aaronparecki.com (@aaronpk@aaronparecki.com) added a heuristic to the friendly channel bot Loqi to recognize when people started using jargon in the main IndieWeb chat channel and nudge⁷ them to the development channel.
Having Loqi do some of the gentle nudging has helped, though it‘s still quite easy for even the experienced folks in the community to get drawn into a developer conversation on main as it were.
We’ve documented both a summary and lengthier descriptions of channel purposes⁸ which help us remind each other, as well as provide a guide to newcomers.
Both experienced community members and newcomers share much of the user-centric focus of the IndieWeb, the IndieWeb being for everyone⁹, whether developer, hobbyist, or someone who wants an independent presence on the web without bothering with technical details. Whether some of us want to code or not, we all want to use our IndieWeb sites to express ourselves on the web, to use our sites instead of depending on social media silos. That shared purpose keeps us focused.
It takes a village: eternal community vigilance is the price of staying user-centric and welcoming to newcomers.
The ideas behind this post were originally shared in the IndieWeb meta chat channel.¹⁰
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"text": "Similar to @paulgraham.com (@paulg@mas.to @paulg)\u2019s 2008 observation about trolls\u00b9, there\u2019s a sort of Gresham's Law of developers (vs users): developers are willing to use a forum with a lot of users in it, but users aren\u2019t willing to use a forum with a lot of developer-speak.\n\nWhether such forums are email lists, chat (IRC, #Matrix, #Slack, #Discord), or, well, online forums (#Reddit, #HackerNews), when discussions either start or shift into technical details, jargon, or acronyms, users (in a very broad sense) tend to stop participating, and sometimes leave, never to return.\n\nUsers in this context are anyone with a desire (or a preference) not to chat or even be bothered spending time reading about technical plumbing & #jargon, and see such discussions as a distraction at best, and more like noise to be avoided.\n\nParaphrasing Paul Graham again: once technical details, jargon, acronyms \u201ctake hold, it tends to become the dominant culture\u201d and discourages users from showing up, discussing user-centric topics, or even staying in said forum.\n\n\nThe #IndieWeb community started in 2011 as a single #indiewebcamp IRC channel (no email list\u00b2) because it was tightly coupled to IndieWebCamp events, which were both highly technical and yet focused on actually making things work on your personal site that you need\u00b3, that you will use\u2074 yourself. Conversations bridged real world use-cases and technical details.\n\nIt only took us five years after the first IndieWebCamp in Portland to recognize that the community had grown beyond the events, and had a clear need for a separate place for deep discussions of developer topics.\n\nAs part of renaming the community from IndieWebCamp to IndieWeb\u2075, we created the #indieweb-dev (dev) channel for such technical topics like protocols, formats, tools, coding libraries, APIs, and any other acronyms or jargon.\n\nThe community did a good job of keeping technical topics in the dev channel, and encouraging new folks in the main #indieweb channel who started technical conversations to continue them in the dev channel. \n\nStill, it was too easy for user-centric topics to veer into technical territory. It often felt more natural to continue a thread in the channel it started rather than break to another channel. There was also a need for regular community labor to nudge developer conversations to the developer chat channel.\n\n\nWe had already started documenting IndieWeb related jargon\u2076 on the wiki and turned it into a MediaWiki Category so we could tag individual pages as jargon and have them automatically show-up in a list. Soon after, @aaronparecki.com (@aaronpk@aaronparecki.com) added a heuristic to the friendly channel bot Loqi to recognize when people started using jargon in the main IndieWeb chat channel and nudge\u2077 them to the development channel.\n\nHaving Loqi do some of the gentle nudging has helped, though it\u2018s still quite easy for even the experienced folks in the community to get drawn into a developer conversation on main as it were.\n\nWe\u2019ve documented both a summary and lengthier descriptions of channel purposes\u2078 which help us remind each other, as well as provide a guide to newcomers.\n\nBoth experienced community members and newcomers share much of the user-centric focus of the IndieWeb, the IndieWeb being for everyone\u2079, whether developer, hobbyist, or someone who wants an independent presence on the web without bothering with technical details. Whether some of us want to code or not, we all want to use our IndieWeb sites to express ourselves on the web, to use our sites instead of depending on social media silos. That shared purpose keeps us focused.\n\nIt takes a village: eternal community vigilance is the price of staying user-centric and welcoming to newcomers.\n\nThe ideas behind this post were originally shared in the IndieWeb meta chat channel.\u00b9\u2070\n\n\nThis is post 8 of #100PostsOfIndieWeb. #100Posts\n\n\u2190 https://tantek.com/2024/033/t1/earthquake-sanfrancisco-shifted\n\u2192 https://tantek.com/2024/035/t2/indiewebcamp-brighton-tickets-available\n\n\nPost glossary:\n\ndevelopment channel (indieweb-dev)\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/discuss#dev\nDiscord\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/Discord\nformat\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/format\nHacker News (HN)\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/Hacker_News\nIndieWeb\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/IndieWeb\nIndieWebCamp\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/IndieWebCamp\nIRC\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/IRC\njargon\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/jargon\nLoqi\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/Loqi\nmain IndieWeb chat channel (on main)\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/discuss#indieweb\nMatrix\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/Matrix\nmeta chat channel\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/discuss#meta\nMediaWiki Category\n\u00a0 https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Categories\nplumbing\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/plumbing\nprotocol\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/protocol\nReddit\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/Reddit\ntools\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/tools\nSlack\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/Slack\nsocial media silos\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/silos\n\n\n\u00b9 https://www.paulgraham.com/trolls.html (2008 essay, HN still succumbed to trolling)\n\u00b2 https://indieweb.org/discuss#Email\n\u00b3 https://indieweb.org/make_what_you_need\n\u2074 https://indieweb.org/use_what_you_make\n\u2075 https://indieweb.org/rename_to_IndieWeb\n\u2076 https://indieweb.org/jargon\n\u2077 https://indieweb.org/Category:jargon#Loqi_Nudge\n\u2078 https://indieweb.org/discuss#Chat_Channels_Purposes\n\u2079 https://tantek.com/2024/026/t3/indieweb-for-everyone-internet-of-people\n\u00b9\u2070 https://chat.indieweb.org/meta/2024-01-22#t1705883690759800",
"html": "Similar to <a href=\"https://paulgraham.com\">@paulgraham.com</a> (<a href=\"https://mas.to/@paulg\">@paulg@mas.to</a> <a class=\"h-cassis-username\" href=\"https://twitter.com/paulg\">@paulg</a>)\u2019s 2008 observation about trolls<a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_note-1\">\u00b9</a>, there\u2019s a sort of Gresham's Law of developers (vs users): developers are willing to use a forum with a lot of users in it, but users aren\u2019t willing to use a forum with a lot of developer-speak.<br /><br />Whether such forums are email lists, chat (IRC, #<span class=\"p-category\">Matrix</span>, #<span class=\"p-category\">Slack</span>, #<span class=\"p-category\">Discord</span>), or, well, online forums (#Reddit, #<span class=\"p-category\">HackerNews</span>), when discussions either start or shift into technical details, jargon, or acronyms, users (in a very broad sense) tend to stop participating, and sometimes leave, never to return.<br /><br />Users in this context are anyone with a desire (or a preference) not to chat or even be bothered spending time reading about technical plumbing & #<span class=\"p-category\">jargon</span>, and see such discussions as a distraction at best, and more like noise to be avoided.<br /><br />Paraphrasing Paul Graham again: once technical details, jargon, acronyms \u201ctake hold, it tends to become the dominant culture\u201d and discourages users from showing up, discussing user-centric topics, or even staying in said forum.<br /><br /><br />The #<span class=\"p-category\">IndieWeb</span> community started in 2011 as a single #<span class=\"p-category\">indiewebcamp</span> IRC channel (no email list<a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_note-2\">\u00b2</a>) because it was tightly coupled to IndieWebCamp events, which were both highly technical and yet focused on actually making things work on your personal site that you need<a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_note-3\">\u00b3</a>, that you will use<a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_note-4\">\u2074</a> yourself. Conversations bridged real world use-cases and technical details.<br /><br />It only took us five years after the first IndieWebCamp in Portland to recognize that the community had grown beyond the events, and had a clear need for a separate place for deep discussions of developer topics.<br /><br />As part of renaming the community from IndieWebCamp to IndieWeb<a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_note-5\">\u2075</a>, we created the #<span class=\"p-category\">indieweb-dev</span> (dev) channel for such technical topics like protocols, formats, tools, coding libraries, APIs, and any other acronyms or jargon.<br /><br />The community did a good job of keeping technical topics in the dev channel, and encouraging new folks in the main #<span class=\"p-category\">indieweb</span> channel who started technical conversations to continue them in the dev channel. <br /><br />Still, it was too easy for user-centric topics to veer into technical territory. It often felt more natural to continue a thread in the channel it started rather than break to another channel. There was also a need for regular community labor to nudge developer conversations to the developer chat channel.<br /><br /><br />We had already started documenting IndieWeb related jargon<a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_note-6\">\u2076</a> on the wiki and turned it into a MediaWiki Category so we could tag individual pages as jargon and have them automatically show-up in a list. Soon after, <a href=\"https://aaronparecki.com\">@aaronparecki.com</a> (<a href=\"https://aaronparecki.com/@aaronpk\">@aaronpk@aaronparecki.com</a>) added a heuristic to the friendly channel bot Loqi to recognize when people started using jargon in the main IndieWeb chat channel and nudge<a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_note-7\">\u2077</a> them to the development channel.<br /><br />Having Loqi do some of the gentle nudging has helped, though it\u2018s still quite easy for even the experienced folks in the community to get drawn into a developer conversation on main as it were.<br /><br />We\u2019ve documented both a summary and lengthier descriptions of channel purposes<a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_note-8\">\u2078</a> which help us remind each other, as well as provide a guide to newcomers.<br /><br />Both experienced community members and newcomers share much of the user-centric focus of the IndieWeb, the IndieWeb being for everyone<a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_note-9\">\u2079</a>, whether developer, hobbyist, or someone who wants an independent presence on the web without bothering with technical details. Whether some of us want to code or not, we all want to use our IndieWeb sites to express ourselves on the web, to use our sites instead of depending on social media silos. That shared purpose keeps us focused.<br /><br />It takes a village: eternal community vigilance is the price of staying user-centric and welcoming to newcomers.<br /><br />The ideas behind this post were originally shared in the IndieWeb meta chat channel.<a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_note-10\">\u00b9\u2070</a><br /><br /><br />This is post 8 of #<span class=\"p-category\">100PostsOfIndieWeb</span>. #<span class=\"p-category\">100Posts</span><br /><br />\u2190 <a href=\"https://tantek.com/2024/033/t1/earthquake-sanfrancisco-shifted\">https://tantek.com/2024/033/t1/earthquake-sanfrancisco-shifted</a><br />\u2192 <a href=\"https://tantek.com/2024/035/t2/indiewebcamp-brighton-tickets-available\">https://tantek.com/2024/035/t2/indiewebcamp-brighton-tickets-available</a><br /><br /><br />Post glossary:<br /><br />development channel (indieweb-dev)<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/discuss#dev\">https://indieweb.org/discuss#dev</a><br />Discord<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/Discord\">https://indieweb.org/Discord</a><br />format<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/format\">https://indieweb.org/format</a><br />Hacker News (HN)<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/Hacker_News\">https://indieweb.org/Hacker_News</a><br />IndieWeb<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/IndieWeb\">https://indieweb.org/IndieWeb</a><br />IndieWebCamp<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/IndieWebCamp\">https://indieweb.org/IndieWebCamp</a><br />IRC<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/IRC\">https://indieweb.org/IRC</a><br />jargon<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/jargon\">https://indieweb.org/jargon</a><br />Loqi<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/Loqi\">https://indieweb.org/Loqi</a><br />main IndieWeb chat channel (on main)<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/discuss#indieweb\">https://indieweb.org/discuss#indieweb</a><br />Matrix<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/Matrix\">https://indieweb.org/Matrix</a><br />meta chat channel<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/discuss#meta\">https://indieweb.org/discuss#meta</a><br />MediaWiki Category<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Categories\">https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Categories</a><br />plumbing<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/plumbing\">https://indieweb.org/plumbing</a><br />protocol<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/protocol\">https://indieweb.org/protocol</a><br />Reddit<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/Reddit\">https://indieweb.org/Reddit</a><br />tools<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/tools\">https://indieweb.org/tools</a><br />Slack<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/Slack\">https://indieweb.org/Slack</a><br />social media silos<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/silos\">https://indieweb.org/silos</a><br /><br /><br /><a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_ref-1\">\u00b9</a> <a href=\"https://www.paulgraham.com/trolls.html\">https://www.paulgraham.com/trolls.html</a> (2008 essay, HN still succumbed to trolling)<br /><a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_ref-2\">\u00b2</a> <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/discuss#Email\">https://indieweb.org/discuss#Email</a><br /><a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_ref-3\">\u00b3</a> <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/make_what_you_need\">https://indieweb.org/make_what_you_need</a><br /><a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_ref-4\">\u2074</a> <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/use_what_you_make\">https://indieweb.org/use_what_you_make</a><br /><a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_ref-5\">\u2075</a> <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/rename_to_IndieWeb\">https://indieweb.org/rename_to_IndieWeb</a><br /><a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_ref-6\">\u2076</a> <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/jargon\">https://indieweb.org/jargon</a><br /><a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_ref-7\">\u2077</a> <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/Category:jargon#Loqi_Nudge\">https://indieweb.org/Category:jargon#Loqi_Nudge</a><br /><a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_ref-8\">\u2078</a> <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/discuss#Chat_Channels_Purposes\">https://indieweb.org/discuss#Chat_Channels_Purposes</a><br /><a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_ref-9\">\u2079</a> <a href=\"https://tantek.com/2024/026/t3/indieweb-for-everyone-internet-of-people\">https://tantek.com/2024/026/t3/indieweb-for-everyone-internet-of-people</a><br /><a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_ref-10\">\u00b9\u2070</a> <a href=\"https://chat.indieweb.org/meta/2024-01-22#t1705883690759800\">https://chat.indieweb.org/meta/2024-01-22#t1705883690759800</a>"
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Similar to @paulgraham.com (@paulg@mas.to@paulg)’s observation about trolls¹, there’s a sort of Gresham's Law of developers (vs users): developers are willing to use a forum with a lot of users in it, but users aren’t willing to use a forum with a lot of developer-speak.
Whether such forums are email lists, chat (IRC, #Matrix, #Slack, #Discord), or, well, online forums (#Reddit, #HackerNews), when discussions either start or shift into technical details, jargon, or acronyms, users (in a very broad sense) tend to stop participating, and sometimes leave, never to return.
Users in this context are anyone with a desire (or a preference) not to chat or even be bothered spending time reading about technical plumbing & #jargon, and see such discussions as a distraction at best, and more like noise to be avoided.
Paraphrasing Paul Graham again: once technical details, jargon, acronyms “take hold, it tends to become the dominant culture” and discourages users from showing up, discussing user-centric topics, or even staying in said forum.
The #IndieWeb community started in 2011 as a single IRC channel #indiewebcamp (no email list²) because it was tightly coupled to IndieWebCamp events, which were both highly technical and yet focused on actually making things work on your personal site that you need³, that you will use⁴ yourself. Conversations bridged real world use-cases and technical details.
It only took us five years after the first IndieWebCamp in Portland to recognize that the community had grown beyond the events, and had a clear need for a separate place for deep discussions of developer topics.
As part of renaming the community from IndieWebCamp to IndieWeb⁵, we created the #indieweb-dev (dev) channel for such technical topics like protocols, formats, tools, coding libraries, APIs, and any other acronyms or jargon.
The community did a good job of keeping technical topics in the dev channel, and encouraging new folks in the main #indieweb channel who started technical conversations to continue them in the dev channel.
Still, it was too easy for user-centric topics to veer into technical territory. It often felt more natural to continue such threads in the channel it started rather than break to another channel. It was also a constant bit of community labor to nudge developer conversations to the developer chat channel.
We had already started documenting IndieWeb related jargon⁶ on the wiki and turned it into a MediaWiki Category so we could tag individual pages as jargon and have them automatically show-up in a list. Soon after, @aaronparecki.com (@aaronpk@aaronparecki.com) added a heuristic to the friendly channel bot Loqi to recognize when people started using jargon in the main IndieWeb chat channel and nudge⁷ them to the development channel.
Having Loqi do some of the gentle nudging has helped, though it‘s still quite easy for even the experienced folks in the community to get drawn into a developer conversation on main as it were.
We’ve documented both a summary and lengthier descriptions of channel purposes⁸ which help us remind each other, as well as provide a guide to newcomers.
Both experienced community members and newcomers share much of the user-centric focus of the IndieWeb, the IndieWeb being for everyone⁹, whether developer, hobbyist, or someone who wants an independent presence on the web without bothering with technical details. Whether some of us want to code or not, we all want to use our IndieWeb sites, to use our sites instead of depending on social media silos. That common purpose keeps us focused.
It takes a community to keep a community healthy and welcoming to newcomers. Eternal community vigilance is the price of a user-focused and newcomer-inclusive community.
The ideas behind this post were originally shared in the IndieWeb meta chat channel.¹⁰
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"type": "entry",
"published": "2024-02-04 15:05-0800",
"url": "https://tantek.com/2024/035/t1/gresham-law-developers-users-jargon",
"category": [
"Matrix",
"Slack",
"Discord",
"HackerNews",
"jargon",
"IndieWeb",
"indiewebcamp",
"indieweb-dev",
"indieweb",
"100PostsOfIndieWeb",
"100Posts"
],
"content": {
"text": "Similar to @paulgraham.com (@paulg@mas.to @paulg)\u2019s observation about trolls\u00b9, there\u2019s a sort of Gresham's Law of developers (vs users): developers are willing to use a forum with a lot of users in it, but users aren\u2019t willing to use a forum with a lot of developer-speak.\n\nWhether such forums are email lists, chat (IRC, #Matrix, #Slack, #Discord), or, well, online forums (#Reddit, #HackerNews), when discussions either start or shift into technical details, jargon, or acronyms, users (in a very broad sense) tend to stop participating, and sometimes leave, never to return.\n\nUsers in this context are anyone with a desire (or a preference) not to chat or even be bothered spending time reading about technical plumbing & #jargon, and see such discussions as a distraction at best, and more like noise to be avoided.\n\nParaphrasing Paul Graham again: once technical details, jargon, acronyms \u201ctake hold, it tends to become the dominant culture\u201d and discourages users from showing up, discussing user-centric topics, or even staying in said forum.\n\n\nThe #IndieWeb community started in 2011 as a single IRC channel #indiewebcamp (no email list\u00b2) because it was tightly coupled to IndieWebCamp events, which were both highly technical and yet focused on actually making things work on your personal site that you need\u00b3, that you will use\u2074 yourself. Conversations bridged real world use-cases and technical details.\n\nIt only took us five years after the first IndieWebCamp in Portland to recognize that the community had grown beyond the events, and had a clear need for a separate place for deep discussions of developer topics.\n\nAs part of renaming the community from IndieWebCamp to IndieWeb\u2075, we created the #indieweb-dev (dev) channel for such technical topics like protocols, formats, tools, coding libraries, APIs, and any other acronyms or jargon.\n\nThe community did a good job of keeping technical topics in the dev channel, and encouraging new folks in the main #indieweb channel who started technical conversations to continue them in the dev channel. \n\nStill, it was too easy for user-centric topics to veer into technical territory. It often felt more natural to continue such threads in the channel it started rather than break to another channel. It was also a constant bit of community labor to nudge developer conversations to the developer chat channel.\n\n\nWe had already started documenting IndieWeb related jargon\u2076 on the wiki and turned it into a MediaWiki Category so we could tag individual pages as jargon and have them automatically show-up in a list. Soon after, @aaronparecki.com (@aaronpk@aaronparecki.com) added a heuristic to the friendly channel bot Loqi to recognize when people started using jargon in the main IndieWeb chat channel and nudge\u2077 them to the development channel.\n\nHaving Loqi do some of the gentle nudging has helped, though it\u2018s still quite easy for even the experienced folks in the community to get drawn into a developer conversation on main as it were.\n\nWe\u2019ve documented both a summary and lengthier descriptions of channel purposes\u2078 which help us remind each other, as well as provide a guide to newcomers.\n\nBoth experienced community members and newcomers share much of the user-centric focus of the IndieWeb, the IndieWeb being for everyone\u2079, whether developer, hobbyist, or someone who wants an independent presence on the web without bothering with technical details. Whether some of us want to code or not, we all want to use our IndieWeb sites, to use our sites instead of depending on social media silos. That common purpose keeps us focused. \n\nIt takes a community to keep a community healthy and welcoming to newcomers. Eternal community vigilance is the price of a user-focused and newcomer-inclusive community.\n\nThe ideas behind this post were originally shared in the IndieWeb meta chat channel.\u00b9\u2070\n\n\nThis is post 8 of #100PostsOfIndieWeb. #100Posts\n\n\u2190 https://tantek.com/2024/033/t1/earthquake-sanfrancisco-shifted\n\u2192 \ud83d\udd2e\n\n\nPost glossary:\n\ndevelopment channel (indieweb-dev)\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/discuss#dev\nformat\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/format\nIndieWeb\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/IndieWeb\nIndieWebCamp\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/IndieWebCamp\njargon\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/jargon\nLoqi\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/Loqi\nmain IndieWeb chat channel (on main)\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/discuss#indieweb\nmeta chat channel\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/discuss#meta\nMediaWiki Category\n\u00a0 https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Categories\nplumbing\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/plumbing\nprotocol\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/protocol\ntools\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/tools\nsocial media silos\n\u00a0 https://indieweb.org/silos\n\n\n\u00b9 https://www.paulgraham.com/trolls.html\n\u00b2 https://indieweb.org/discuss#Email\n\u00b3 https://indieweb.org/make_what_you_need\n\u2074 https://indieweb.org/use_what_you_make\n\u2075 https://indieweb.org/rename_to_IndieWeb\n\u2076 https://indieweb.org/jargon\n\u2077 https://indieweb.org/Category:jargon#Loqi_Nudge\n\u2078 https://indieweb.org/discuss#Chat_Channels_Purposes\n\u2079 https://tantek.com/2024/026/t3/indieweb-for-everyone-internet-of-people\n\u00b9\u2070 https://chat.indieweb.org/meta/2024-01-22#t1705883690759800",
"html": "Similar to <a href=\"https://paulgraham.com\">@paulgraham.com</a> (<a href=\"https://mas.to/@paulg\">@paulg@mas.to</a> <a class=\"h-cassis-username\" href=\"https://twitter.com/paulg\">@paulg</a>)\u2019s observation about trolls<a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_note-1\">\u00b9</a>, there\u2019s a sort of Gresham's Law of developers (vs users): developers are willing to use a forum with a lot of users in it, but users aren\u2019t willing to use a forum with a lot of developer-speak.<br /><br />Whether such forums are email lists, chat (IRC, #<span class=\"p-category\">Matrix</span>, #<span class=\"p-category\">Slack</span>, #<span class=\"p-category\">Discord</span>), or, well, online forums (#Reddit, #<span class=\"p-category\">HackerNews</span>), when discussions either start or shift into technical details, jargon, or acronyms, users (in a very broad sense) tend to stop participating, and sometimes leave, never to return.<br /><br />Users in this context are anyone with a desire (or a preference) not to chat or even be bothered spending time reading about technical plumbing & #<span class=\"p-category\">jargon</span>, and see such discussions as a distraction at best, and more like noise to be avoided.<br /><br />Paraphrasing Paul Graham again: once technical details, jargon, acronyms \u201ctake hold, it tends to become the dominant culture\u201d and discourages users from showing up, discussing user-centric topics, or even staying in said forum.<br /><br /><br />The #<span class=\"p-category\">IndieWeb</span> community started in 2011 as a single IRC channel #<span class=\"p-category\">indiewebcamp</span> (no email list<a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_note-2\">\u00b2</a>) because it was tightly coupled to IndieWebCamp events, which were both highly technical and yet focused on actually making things work on your personal site that you need<a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_note-3\">\u00b3</a>, that you will use<a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_note-4\">\u2074</a> yourself. Conversations bridged real world use-cases and technical details.<br /><br />It only took us five years after the first IndieWebCamp in Portland to recognize that the community had grown beyond the events, and had a clear need for a separate place for deep discussions of developer topics.<br /><br />As part of renaming the community from IndieWebCamp to IndieWeb<a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_note-5\">\u2075</a>, we created the #<span class=\"p-category\">indieweb-dev</span> (dev) channel for such technical topics like protocols, formats, tools, coding libraries, APIs, and any other acronyms or jargon.<br /><br />The community did a good job of keeping technical topics in the dev channel, and encouraging new folks in the main #<span class=\"p-category\">indieweb</span> channel who started technical conversations to continue them in the dev channel. <br /><br />Still, it was too easy for user-centric topics to veer into technical territory. It often felt more natural to continue such threads in the channel it started rather than break to another channel. It was also a constant bit of community labor to nudge developer conversations to the developer chat channel.<br /><br /><br />We had already started documenting IndieWeb related jargon<a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_note-6\">\u2076</a> on the wiki and turned it into a MediaWiki Category so we could tag individual pages as jargon and have them automatically show-up in a list. Soon after, <a href=\"https://aaronparecki.com\">@aaronparecki.com</a> (<a href=\"https://aaronparecki.com/@aaronpk\">@aaronpk@aaronparecki.com</a>) added a heuristic to the friendly channel bot Loqi to recognize when people started using jargon in the main IndieWeb chat channel and nudge<a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_note-7\">\u2077</a> them to the development channel.<br /><br />Having Loqi do some of the gentle nudging has helped, though it\u2018s still quite easy for even the experienced folks in the community to get drawn into a developer conversation on main as it were.<br /><br />We\u2019ve documented both a summary and lengthier descriptions of channel purposes<a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_note-8\">\u2078</a> which help us remind each other, as well as provide a guide to newcomers.<br /><br />Both experienced community members and newcomers share much of the user-centric focus of the IndieWeb, the IndieWeb being for everyone<a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_note-9\">\u2079</a>, whether developer, hobbyist, or someone who wants an independent presence on the web without bothering with technical details. Whether some of us want to code or not, we all want to use our IndieWeb sites, to use our sites instead of depending on social media silos. That common purpose keeps us focused. <br /><br />It takes a community to keep a community healthy and welcoming to newcomers. Eternal community vigilance is the price of a user-focused and newcomer-inclusive community.<br /><br />The ideas behind this post were originally shared in the IndieWeb meta chat channel.<a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_note-10\">\u00b9\u2070</a><br /><br /><br />This is post 8 of #<span class=\"p-category\">100PostsOfIndieWeb</span>. #<span class=\"p-category\">100Posts</span><br /><br />\u2190 <a href=\"https://tantek.com/2024/033/t1/earthquake-sanfrancisco-shifted\">https://tantek.com/2024/033/t1/earthquake-sanfrancisco-shifted</a><br />\u2192 \ud83d\udd2e<br /><br /><br />Post glossary:<br /><br />development channel (indieweb-dev)<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/discuss#dev\">https://indieweb.org/discuss#dev</a><br />format<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/format\">https://indieweb.org/format</a><br />IndieWeb<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/IndieWeb\">https://indieweb.org/IndieWeb</a><br />IndieWebCamp<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/IndieWebCamp\">https://indieweb.org/IndieWebCamp</a><br />jargon<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/jargon\">https://indieweb.org/jargon</a><br />Loqi<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/Loqi\">https://indieweb.org/Loqi</a><br />main IndieWeb chat channel (on main)<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/discuss#indieweb\">https://indieweb.org/discuss#indieweb</a><br />meta chat channel<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/discuss#meta\">https://indieweb.org/discuss#meta</a><br />MediaWiki Category<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Categories\">https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Categories</a><br />plumbing<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/plumbing\">https://indieweb.org/plumbing</a><br />protocol<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/protocol\">https://indieweb.org/protocol</a><br />tools<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/tools\">https://indieweb.org/tools</a><br />social media silos<br />\u00a0 <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/silos\">https://indieweb.org/silos</a><br /><br /><br /><a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_ref-1\">\u00b9</a> <a href=\"https://www.paulgraham.com/trolls.html\">https://www.paulgraham.com/trolls.html</a><br /><a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_ref-2\">\u00b2</a> <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/discuss#Email\">https://indieweb.org/discuss#Email</a><br /><a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_ref-3\">\u00b3</a> <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/make_what_you_need\">https://indieweb.org/make_what_you_need</a><br /><a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_ref-4\">\u2074</a> <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/use_what_you_make\">https://indieweb.org/use_what_you_make</a><br /><a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_ref-5\">\u2075</a> <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/rename_to_IndieWeb\">https://indieweb.org/rename_to_IndieWeb</a><br /><a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_ref-6\">\u2076</a> <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/jargon\">https://indieweb.org/jargon</a><br /><a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_ref-7\">\u2077</a> <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/Category:jargon#Loqi_Nudge\">https://indieweb.org/Category:jargon#Loqi_Nudge</a><br /><a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_ref-8\">\u2078</a> <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/discuss#Chat_Channels_Purposes\">https://indieweb.org/discuss#Chat_Channels_Purposes</a><br /><a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_ref-9\">\u2079</a> <a href=\"https://tantek.com/2024/026/t3/indieweb-for-everyone-internet-of-people\">https://tantek.com/2024/026/t3/indieweb-for-everyone-internet-of-people</a><br /><a href=\"https://tantek.com/#t5VH1_ref-10\">\u00b9\u2070</a> <a href=\"https://chat.indieweb.org/meta/2024-01-22#t1705883690759800\">https://chat.indieweb.org/meta/2024-01-22#t1705883690759800</a>"
},
"author": {
"type": "card",
"name": "Tantek \u00c7elik",
"url": "https://tantek.com/",
"photo": "https://tantek.com/photo.jpg"
},
"post-type": "note",
"_id": "40192357",
"_source": "2460"
}
