Coming up this Saturday, there’s a Micropub discussion session over Zoom. We’ll be reviewing some of the Micropub extensions people are using (including Micro.blog). Details on the IndieWeb events site.
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"html": "<p>Coming up this Saturday, there\u2019s a Micropub discussion session over Zoom. We\u2019ll be reviewing some of the Micropub extensions people are using (including Micro.blog). Details <a href=\"https://events.indieweb.org/2020/07/micropub-pop-up-session-kGMIMOXFUdBn\">on the IndieWeb events site</a>.</p>",
"text": "Coming up this Saturday, there\u2019s a Micropub discussion session over Zoom. We\u2019ll be reviewing some of the Micropub extensions people are using (including Micro.blog). Details on the IndieWeb events site."
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"published": "2020-07-20T11:34:50-05:00",
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I'm always interested to hear how other folks approach their (IndieWeb) architecture - this is a good read!
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"text": "I'm always interested to hear how other folks approach their (IndieWeb) architecture - this is a good read!",
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@b_cavello, been reflecting. "immunity" not the goal. "#decentralisation" has been colonized by #blockchain snakeoil
Goals:
* agency+community instead of corp dominance
* humble interop, choices, direct practices
Like end of tweet #IndieWeb post links
which allow us to write and post more on our own sites,
and link to more resources like:
* https://indieweb.org/principles
* https://indieweb.org/why
* https://indieweb.org/start
We reject traditional "fast growth" capitalist narratives, and instead humbly encourage slow sustainable growth across numerous projects that interoperate with each other.
Longevity & dependability directly benefit the people participating, instead of shortterm excitement which typically only benefits investors (sometimes "serial" entrepreneurs).
Would love to chat more about these topics: https://chat.indieweb.org/ (There’s a Slack link there too to use Slack to join).
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"text": "@b_cavello, been reflecting. \"immunity\" not the goal. \"#decentralisation\" has been colonized by #blockchain snakeoil\n\nGoals:\n* agency+community instead of corp dominance\n* humble interop, choices, direct practices\nLike end of tweet #IndieWeb post links \nwhich allow us to write and post more on our own sites, \nand link to more resources like: \n* https://indieweb.org/principles\n* https://indieweb.org/why\n* https://indieweb.org/start\n\nWe reject traditional \"fast growth\" capitalist narratives, and instead humbly encourage slow sustainable growth across numerous projects that interoperate with each other.\n\nLongevity & dependability directly benefit the people participating, instead of shortterm excitement which typically only benefits investors (sometimes \"serial\" entrepreneurs).\n\nWould love to chat more about these topics: https://chat.indieweb.org/ (There\u2019s a Slack link there too to use Slack to join).",
"html": "<a class=\"h-cassis-username\" href=\"https://twitter.com/b_cavello\">@b_cavello</a>, been reflecting. \"immunity\" not the goal. \"#decentralisation\" has been colonized by #<span class=\"p-category\">blockchain</span> snakeoil<br /><br />Goals:<br />* agency+community instead of corp dominance<br />* humble interop, choices, direct practices<br />Like end of tweet #<span class=\"p-category\">IndieWeb</span> post links <br />which allow us to write and post more on our own sites, <br />and link to more resources like: <br />* <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/principles\">https://indieweb.org/principles</a><br />* <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/why\">https://indieweb.org/why</a><br />* <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/start\">https://indieweb.org/start</a><br /><br />We reject traditional \"fast growth\" capitalist narratives, and instead humbly encourage slow sustainable growth across numerous projects that interoperate with each other.<br /><br />Longevity & dependability directly benefit the people participating, instead of shortterm excitement which typically only benefits investors (sometimes \"serial\" entrepreneurs).<br /><br />Would love to chat more about these topics: <a href=\"https://chat.indieweb.org/\">https://chat.indieweb.org/</a> (There\u2019s a Slack link there too to use Slack to join)."
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Those worked but since it was also done for every form of content, it began a bit burdensome to maintain as I begun this larger refactor. This is also part of my motivation to encourage more work on social IndieWeb readers :)
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"text": "Those worked but since it was also done for every form of content, it began a bit burdensome to maintain as I begun this larger refactor. This is also part of my motivation to encourage more work on social IndieWeb readers :)",
"html": "<p>Those worked but since it was also done for every form of content, it began a bit burdensome to maintain as I begun this larger refactor. This is also part of my motivation to encourage more work on social IndieWeb readers :)</p>"
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"text": "I understand that such a big feed is a problem. Maybe limiting the feed the last n entries is a solution for you? Or making the amount of entries per page smaller?",
"html": "<p>\nI understand that such a big feed is a problem. Maybe limiting the feed the last <code>n</code> entries is a solution for you? Or making the amount of entries per page smaller?</p>"
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It’s already under way. We have the protocol that can give us this (AS2 + Git): https://github.com/forgefed/forgefed. Just need a company vested on actually working on actual community tools and not a brand https://drewdevault.com/2018/07/23/Git-is-already-distributed.html https://twitter.com/nomadtechie/status/1284218230870085634. Some IndieWeb magic would help too.
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"url": "https://v2.jacky.wtf/post/a890c637-6a3d-43f0-bd07-ab5d221aa8cf",
"content": {
"text": "It\u2019s already under way. We have the protocol that can give us this (AS2 + Git): https://github.com/forgefed/forgefed. Just need a company vested on actually working on actual community tools and not a brand https://drewdevault.com/2018/07/23/Git-is-already-distributed.html https://twitter.com/nomadtechie/status/1284218230870085634. Some IndieWeb magic would help too.",
"html": "<p>It\u2019s already under way. We have the protocol that can give us this (AS2 + Git): <a href=\"https://github.com/forgefed/forgefed\">https://github.com/forgefed/forgefed</a>. Just need a company vested on actually working on actual community tools and not a brand <a href=\"https://drewdevault.com/2018/07/23/Git-is-already-distributed.html\">https://drewdevault.com/2018/07/23/Git-is-already-distributed.html</a> <a href=\"https://twitter.com/nomadtechie/status/1284218230870085634\">https://twitter.com/nomadtechie/status/1284218230870085634</a>. Some IndieWeb magic would help too.</p>"
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I will try to make it to “Micropub Pop-Up Session.” I may be a bit late.
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"text": "I will try to make it to \u201cMicropub Pop-Up Session.\u201d I may be a bit late.",
"html": "<p>I will try to make it to \u201c<a class=\"u-in-reply-to\" href=\"https://events.indieweb.org/2020/07/micropub-pop-up-session-kGMIMOXFUdBn\">Micropub Pop-Up Session</a>.\u201d I may be a bit late.</p>"
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Having your independent blog is an excellent way to share what you think in a decentralized way, independent of any major company that may add a paywall to it (Medium, I am looking at you).
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"text": "Why you should have a blog (and write in it) | Leticia Portella\n\n\n\n\n Having your independent blog is an excellent way to share what you think in a decentralized way, independent of any major company that may add a paywall to it (Medium, I am looking at you).",
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Oh, and I can load content from a post! https://micropublish.net/, I’m coming for ya, lol.
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"text": "Oh, and I can load content from a post! https://micropublish.net/, I\u2019m coming for ya, lol.",
"html": "<p>Oh, and I can load content from a post! <a href=\"https://micropublish.net/\">https://micropublish.net/</a>, I\u2019m coming for ya, lol.</p>"
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"content": {
"text": "This is the interface for Koype Publish after you use Web sign in. It\u2019ll pull some of the last articles you\u2019ve written and (depending on the support your site exposes) allow you to create new articles and pages as well as customize your homepage.",
"html": "<p>This is the interface for Koype Publish after you use Web sign in. It\u2019ll pull some of the last articles you\u2019ve written and (depending on the support your site exposes) allow you to create new articles and pages as well as customize your homepage.</p>"
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"type": "card",
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"url": "http://beesbuzz.biz/blog/1529-Stuff-about-webmention",
"published": "2020-07-16T10:38:52-07:00",
"content": {
"html": "<p><a href=\"https://martymcgui.re/\">Marty</a> wrote a <a href=\"https://martymcgui.re/2020/07/15/what-we-talk-about-when-were-talking-about-webmentions/\">great, thoughtful essay</a> about some of the problems with webmention right now, and I agree with it.</p><p>One of the many problems that\u2019s emerging with webmention is it\u2019s turned into a sort of Swiss army knife of notifications; the IndieWeb uses it not just to send responses to folks, but also for things like publishing to <a href=\"https://fed.brid.gy/\">Bridgy Fed</a> or syndicating content to <a href=\"https://news.indieweb.org/en/\">content</a> <a href=\"https://indieweb.xyz/\">aggregators</a>. It\u2019s the basis of how <a href=\"http://beesbuzz.biz/chatter/\">notes</a> work. It\u2019s up to the recipient to try to disambiguate the meaning based on context and <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/post-type-discovery\">post-type discovery</a>, and what things are can <a href=\"http://beesbuzz.biz/articles/10425-Changes\">change</a> over time, sometimes in unpredictable ways that fall apart.</p>\n\n\n<p>And the problem of display is a big one. When I wrote <a href=\"https://github.com/PlaidWeb/webmention.js\">webmention.js</a> it was as a quick hack for my own site, which I released on its own because it seemed useful for others. I don\u2019t really want it to be a thing that everyone uses; I\u2019d much rather see sites aggregate and publish their webmentions server-side (I mean, I am <a href=\"http://beesbuzz.biz/blog/2934-Advice-to-young-web-developers\">a proponent of server-side rendering</a> for a bunch of reasons), but having a simple client-side javascript hack is a nice way to get webmention a bit more generally-used.</p><p>Webmention-as-reaction is fine, but it\u2019s very difficult to get good UX with webmention-as-comments. Reply chains are difficult to follow, especially if one of the links in the chain breaks. Webmentions that come in via <a href=\"https://brid.gy/\">brid.gy</a> can make for a bad unstructured reading experience as well. There\u2019s also still no real implementations around webmention for private posts; even with the <a href=\"http://beesbuzz.biz/blog/5711-Access-token-grants-for-feed-readers\">progress towards private posting</a> (with two theoretical ideas) there are no readers that support this stuff, much less webmention endpoints. Any ecosystem which supports this stuff is going to need a tighter coupling between the webmention endpoint and the authentication token broker. This can certainly be engineered for, but gosh are there a lot of pieces that need to come together to work together\u2026</p><p>The more I think about this stuff, the more I feel like all the functionality needs to start being bundled together into one ball, and then that makes it start to sound a heck of a lot like the reasons I dislike ActivityPub. If I do ever get around to implementing <a href=\"https://github.com/PlaidWeb/Subl/\">Subl</a>, will it end up having to implement the webmention endpoint too? I mean, it\u2019s meant to subscribe to publications, including push events like WebSub and Ticket Auth, and what\u2019s webmention but yet another type of published event?</p><p>I dunno, this all just feels so <em>overwhelming</em> at times.</p><p>Mostly I like webmention as a mechanism for getting notified about stuff that happens externally, and prefer native comments for the actual discussions on a post. It\u2019s safer, it keeps all of the conversation in one place, it allows for easier moderation and abuse mitigation, and it doesn\u2019t rely on a web<a href=\"http://beesbuzz.biz/blog/1529-Stuff-about-webmention#d_e1529_fn1\">1</a> of trust that ultimately is based on the benevolence of the Internet community. Which, as we all know, is tenuous at best.</p><p>Of course the other problem with webmention is the expectation that (like all things IndieWeb) everyone have their own website on their own hosting and their own domain. There are external glue services like <a href=\"https://commentpara.de/\">commentpara.de</a> that can help fill the gap but it feels like it\u2019s being filled with spackle instead of something that can actually bear the load. And something about that also feels like it can become yet another abuse vector, too.</p><p>So, I dunno. I think I prefer to think of webmention as an \u201cexternal\u201d thing, a nice indicator of what others around the web feel and think about my stuff, but would rather work on further developing native comments for on-site commentary. I know, it\u2019s very silo-type thinking of me, but it\u2019s also what makes me feel comfortable.</p><p>As an aside, <a href=\"https://posativ.org/isso/\">my current comment system</a> certainly has its share of issues and jank (and I\u2019m not a fan of its client-side rendering nature either) but its design is at least such that I can use it fairly reliably. Of course, now that Publ supports arbitrary entry attachments I have plenty of ideas about how to build a comment system that\u2019s based on native Publ functionality. It would probably scale better, too. Heck, I could also implement my own webmention endpoint (or at least a <a href=\"https://webmention.io/\">webmention.io</a> webhook) that does something similar, and turns incoming webmentions into native comments and maybe get the best of both worlds? I dunno.</p>\n\n<ol><li><p>So to speak <a href=\"http://beesbuzz.biz/blog/1529-Stuff-about-webmention#r_e1529_fn1\">\u21a9</a></p></li></ol><p><a href=\"http://beesbuzz.biz/blog/1529-Stuff-about-webmention#comments\">comments</a></p>",
"text": "Marty wrote a great, thoughtful essay about some of the problems with webmention right now, and I agree with it.One of the many problems that\u2019s emerging with webmention is it\u2019s turned into a sort of Swiss army knife of notifications; the IndieWeb uses it not just to send responses to folks, but also for things like publishing to Bridgy Fed or syndicating content to content aggregators. It\u2019s the basis of how notes work. It\u2019s up to the recipient to try to disambiguate the meaning based on context and post-type discovery, and what things are can change over time, sometimes in unpredictable ways that fall apart.\n\n\nAnd the problem of display is a big one. When I wrote webmention.js it was as a quick hack for my own site, which I released on its own because it seemed useful for others. I don\u2019t really want it to be a thing that everyone uses; I\u2019d much rather see sites aggregate and publish their webmentions server-side (I mean, I am a proponent of server-side rendering for a bunch of reasons), but having a simple client-side javascript hack is a nice way to get webmention a bit more generally-used.Webmention-as-reaction is fine, but it\u2019s very difficult to get good UX with webmention-as-comments. Reply chains are difficult to follow, especially if one of the links in the chain breaks. Webmentions that come in via brid.gy can make for a bad unstructured reading experience as well. There\u2019s also still no real implementations around webmention for private posts; even with the progress towards private posting (with two theoretical ideas) there are no readers that support this stuff, much less webmention endpoints. Any ecosystem which supports this stuff is going to need a tighter coupling between the webmention endpoint and the authentication token broker. This can certainly be engineered for, but gosh are there a lot of pieces that need to come together to work together\u2026The more I think about this stuff, the more I feel like all the functionality needs to start being bundled together into one ball, and then that makes it start to sound a heck of a lot like the reasons I dislike ActivityPub. If I do ever get around to implementing Subl, will it end up having to implement the webmention endpoint too? I mean, it\u2019s meant to subscribe to publications, including push events like WebSub and Ticket Auth, and what\u2019s webmention but yet another type of published event?I dunno, this all just feels so overwhelming at times.Mostly I like webmention as a mechanism for getting notified about stuff that happens externally, and prefer native comments for the actual discussions on a post. It\u2019s safer, it keeps all of the conversation in one place, it allows for easier moderation and abuse mitigation, and it doesn\u2019t rely on a web1 of trust that ultimately is based on the benevolence of the Internet community. Which, as we all know, is tenuous at best.Of course the other problem with webmention is the expectation that (like all things IndieWeb) everyone have their own website on their own hosting and their own domain. There are external glue services like commentpara.de that can help fill the gap but it feels like it\u2019s being filled with spackle instead of something that can actually bear the load. And something about that also feels like it can become yet another abuse vector, too.So, I dunno. I think I prefer to think of webmention as an \u201cexternal\u201d thing, a nice indicator of what others around the web feel and think about my stuff, but would rather work on further developing native comments for on-site commentary. I know, it\u2019s very silo-type thinking of me, but it\u2019s also what makes me feel comfortable.As an aside, my current comment system certainly has its share of issues and jank (and I\u2019m not a fan of its client-side rendering nature either) but its design is at least such that I can use it fairly reliably. Of course, now that Publ supports arbitrary entry attachments I have plenty of ideas about how to build a comment system that\u2019s based on native Publ functionality. It would probably scale better, too. Heck, I could also implement my own webmention endpoint (or at least a webmention.io webhook) that does something similar, and turns incoming webmentions into native comments and maybe get the best of both worlds? I dunno.\n\nSo to speak \u21a9comments"
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Nice bit of reconstruction, and that you're factoring at the indieweb protocol level makes sense. Another protocol you may want to look at is WebSub so you don't need to poll your feeds so often, but can call web hooks when they are updated.
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"text": "Nice bit of reconstruction, and that you're factoring at the indieweb protocol level makes sense. Another protocol you may want to look at is WebSub so you don't need to poll your feeds so often, but can call web hooks when they are updated."
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hosted Homebrew Website Club West Coast tonight:
https://events.indieweb.org/2020/07/homebrew-website-club-west-coast-ZObv0hlGOdR5
Discussed many topics: proposed h-entry p-content-warning property https://github.com/microformats/h-entry/issues/19, IndieAuth test suite, UX personas roles as a way to update https://indieweb.org/generations, and more
{
"type": "entry",
"published": "2020-07-08 23:21-0700",
"rsvp": "yes",
"url": "http://tantek.com/2020/190/t2/homebrew-website-club-west",
"in-reply-to": [
"https://events.indieweb.org/2020/07/homebrew-website-club-west-coast-ZObv0hlGOdR5"
],
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"text": "hosted Homebrew Website Club West Coast tonight:\nhttps://events.indieweb.org/2020/07/homebrew-website-club-west-coast-ZObv0hlGOdR5\nDiscussed many topics: proposed h-entry p-content-warning property https://github.com/microformats/h-entry/issues/19, IndieAuth test suite, UX personas roles as a way to update https://indieweb.org/generations, and more",
"html": "hosted Homebrew Website Club West Coast tonight:<br /><a href=\"https://events.indieweb.org/2020/07/homebrew-website-club-west-coast-ZObv0hlGOdR5\">https://events.indieweb.org/2020/07/homebrew-website-club-west-coast-ZObv0hlGOdR5</a><br />Discussed many topics: proposed h-entry p-content-warning property <a href=\"https://github.com/microformats/h-entry/issues/19\">https://github.com/microformats/h-entry/issues/19</a>, IndieAuth test suite, UX personas roles as a way to update <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/generations\">https://indieweb.org/generations</a>, and more"
},
"author": {
"type": "card",
"name": "Tantek \u00c7elik",
"url": "http://tantek.com/",
"photo": "https://aperture-media.p3k.io/tantek.com/acfddd7d8b2c8cf8aa163651432cc1ec7eb8ec2f881942dca963d305eeaaa6b8.jpg"
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went to Homebrew Website Club London:
https://events.indieweb.org/2020/07/online-homebrew-website-club-europe-london-eIf6VfMWuhLY
Great chatting with folks about rethinking person-tagging public photos (now considered harmful), and discussed #IndieWeb Organizers & Organizing blog post: https://tantek.com/2020/187/b1/changes-indieweb-organizing-indiewebcamp-west
{
"type": "entry",
"published": "2020-07-08 17:20-0700",
"rsvp": "yes",
"url": "http://tantek.com/2020/190/t1/homebrew-website-club-london",
"category": [
"IndieWeb"
],
"in-reply-to": [
"https://events.indieweb.org/2020/07/online-homebrew-website-club-europe-london-eIf6VfMWuhLY"
],
"content": {
"text": "went to Homebrew Website Club London:\nhttps://events.indieweb.org/2020/07/online-homebrew-website-club-europe-london-eIf6VfMWuhLY\nGreat chatting with folks about rethinking person-tagging public photos (now considered harmful), and discussed #IndieWeb Organizers & Organizing blog post: https://tantek.com/2020/187/b1/changes-indieweb-organizing-indiewebcamp-west",
"html": "went to Homebrew Website Club London:<br /><a href=\"https://events.indieweb.org/2020/07/online-homebrew-website-club-europe-london-eIf6VfMWuhLY\">https://events.indieweb.org/2020/07/online-homebrew-website-club-europe-london-eIf6VfMWuhLY</a><br />Great chatting with folks about rethinking person-tagging public photos (now considered harmful), and discussed #<span class=\"p-category\">IndieWeb</span> Organizers & Organizing blog post: <a href=\"https://tantek.com/2020/187/b1/changes-indieweb-organizing-indiewebcamp-west\">https://tantek.com/2020/187/b1/changes-indieweb-organizing-indiewebcamp-west</a>"
},
"author": {
"type": "card",
"name": "Tantek \u00c7elik",
"url": "http://tantek.com/",
"photo": "https://aperture-media.p3k.io/tantek.com/acfddd7d8b2c8cf8aa163651432cc1ec7eb8ec2f881942dca963d305eeaaa6b8.jpg"
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"type": "entry",
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"_source": "1",
"_is_read": true
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{
"type": "entry",
"published": "2020-07-15 16:04-0700",
"url": "http://tantek.com/2020/197/t2/good-indieweb-reminder",
"category": [
"IndieWeb",
"BlueChecks"
],
"content": {
"text": "Good #IndieWeb reminder from @brentsimmons: https://inessential.com/2020/07/15/zillion_times_easier (https://twitter.com/brentsimmons/status/1283534944493502470)\n\nAnd #BlueChecks appear to be frozen, unable to tweet, only retweet.\n\nSo of course this exists: @EveryWord",
"html": "Good #<span class=\"p-category\">IndieWeb</span> reminder from <a class=\"h-cassis-username\" href=\"https://twitter.com/brentsimmons\">@brentsimmons</a>: <a href=\"https://inessential.com/2020/07/15/zillion_times_easier\">https://inessential.com/2020/07/15/zillion_times_easier</a> (<a href=\"https://twitter.com/brentsimmons/status/1283534944493502470\">https://twitter.com/brentsimmons/status/1283534944493502470</a>)<br /><br />And #<span class=\"p-category\">BlueChecks</span> appear to be frozen, unable to tweet, only retweet.<br /><br />So of course this exists: <a class=\"h-cassis-username\" href=\"https://twitter.com/EveryWord\">@EveryWord</a>"
},
"author": {
"type": "card",
"name": "Tantek \u00c7elik",
"url": "http://tantek.com/",
"photo": "https://aperture-media.p3k.io/tantek.com/acfddd7d8b2c8cf8aa163651432cc1ec7eb8ec2f881942dca963d305eeaaa6b8.jpg"
},
"post-type": "note",
"_id": "13252640",
"_source": "1",
"_is_read": true
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#TwitterHacked. What she said https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1283513914597298178 via @b_cavello
Y’all know:
#Bitcoin is a coal-burning CO2 producing currency for organized crime
#blockchain is mostly #dweb snakeoil (singleton, OSS monoculture)
Go #IndieWeb or SSB for the real: https://indieweb.org/
{
"type": "entry",
"published": "2020-07-15 14:57-0700",
"url": "http://tantek.com/2020/197/t1/twitterhacked-bitcoin-blockchain",
"category": [
"TwitterHacked",
"Bitcoin",
"blockchain",
"dweb",
"IndieWeb"
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"content": {
"text": "#TwitterHacked. What she said https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1283513914597298178 via @b_cavello\n\nY\u2019all know:\n#Bitcoin is a coal-burning CO2 producing currency for organized crime\n#blockchain is mostly #dweb snakeoil (singleton, OSS monoculture)\n\nGo #IndieWeb or SSB for the real: https://indieweb.org/",
"html": "#<span class=\"p-category\">TwitterHacked</span>. What she said <a href=\"https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1283513914597298178\">https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1283513914597298178</a> via <a class=\"h-cassis-username\" href=\"https://twitter.com/b_cavello\">@b_cavello</a><br /><br />Y\u2019all know:<br />#<span class=\"p-category\">Bitcoin</span> is a coal-burning CO2 producing currency for organized crime<br />#<span class=\"p-category\">blockchain</span> is mostly #<span class=\"p-category\">dweb</span> snakeoil (singleton, OSS monoculture)<br /><br />Go #<span class=\"p-category\">IndieWeb</span> or SSB for the real: <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/\">https://indieweb.org/</a>"
},
"author": {
"type": "card",
"name": "Tantek \u00c7elik",
"url": "http://tantek.com/",
"photo": "https://aperture-media.p3k.io/tantek.com/acfddd7d8b2c8cf8aa163651432cc1ec7eb8ec2f881942dca963d305eeaaa6b8.jpg"
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"_id": "13252641",
"_source": "1",
"_is_read": true
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{
"type": "entry",
"published": "2020-07-15T18:14:00.00000-07:00",
"url": "https://v2.jacky.wtf/post/e915caaa-787d-43b9-ab3a-aaa43c256acf",
"content": {
"text": "Currently!!! https://events.indieweb.org/2020/07/homebrew-website-club-west-coast-UWgdEMwxDSQI",
"html": "<p>Currently!!! <a href=\"https://events.indieweb.org/2020/07/homebrew-website-club-west-coast-UWgdEMwxDSQI\">https://events.indieweb.org/2020/07/homebrew-website-club-west-coast-UWgdEMwxDSQI</a></p>"
},
"author": {
"type": "card",
"name": "",
"url": "https://v2.jacky.wtf",
"photo": null
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"_id": "13250938",
"_source": "1886",
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I'm going!Looking forward to some IndieWeb thinking and chatting!
{
"type": "entry",
"published": "2020-07-15T20:35:27-0400",
"rsvp": "yes",
"url": "https://martymcgui.re/2020/07/15/203527/",
"in-reply-to": [
"https://events.indieweb.org/2020/07/homebrew-website-club-west-coast-UWgdEMwxDSQI"
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"content": {
"text": "I'm going!Looking forward to some IndieWeb thinking and chatting!",
"html": "I'm going!<p>Looking forward to some IndieWeb thinking and chatting!</p>"
},
"author": {
"type": "card",
"name": "Marty McGuire",
"url": "https://martymcgui.re/",
"photo": "https://martymcgui.re/images/logo.jpg"
},
"post-type": "rsvp",
"refs": {
"https://events.indieweb.org/2020/07/homebrew-website-club-west-coast-UWgdEMwxDSQI": {
"type": "entry",
"summary": "Any questions? Ask in the IndieWeb chat!",
"url": "https://events.indieweb.org/2020/07/homebrew-website-club-west-coast-UWgdEMwxDSQI",
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"https://res.cloudinary.com/schmarty/image/fetch/w_960,c_fill/https://events.indieweb.org/storage/events/20200406-lBWNp28qEePEUsAbCI8YvPtFVX5CSy.jpg"
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"name": "Homebrew Website Club West Coast",
"author": {
"type": "card",
"name": "events.indieweb.org",
"url": "http://events.indieweb.org",
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{
"type": "entry",
"published": "2020-07-15T19:31:31-0400",
"url": "https://martymcgui.re/2020/07/15/what-we-talk-about-when-were-talking-about-webmentions/",
"category": [
"IndieWeb",
"Webmention",
"rant"
],
"name": "What we talk about when we're talking about \"Webmentions\"",
"content": {
"text": "I have a great fondness for IndieWeb building blocks and Webmention is a wonderful meta-building-block that connects so many individual websites together.\n\n Obligatory \"what is Webmention?\": it's a specification that describes a way to \"tell\" a website that some document out on the web links to one of the pages on that site. \n \n\nSound simple? It is! Perhaps even suspiciously simple. Webmention enables whole new kinds of interactions between sites (some great examples in this A List Apart piece). Unfortunately, almost all of the coordination to support these interactions happen outside of the \"Webmention\" spec itself.\nSo, when I see blog post titles like these I am not sure exactly what to expect:\nIntegrating Webmention with my blog\n Pelican, Pingback and Webmentions\n Webmention for TiddlyWiki to enable website to website notifications and communication\n and this clickbait sensation: Add Webmention support to your website in ten minutes\n\n\n There are many more like this, I just grabbed a handful off the last few pages of news.indieweb.org.\n \n\nThese examples and many more are referring to the most talked-about use of Webmention: enabling site-to-site comments and responses, like a souped-up independent alternative to terrible embeds like Disqus.\nThis may sound like a simple feature! We might expect it to look like this:\nYou see a post on the web that you like. Let's call that \"their post\".\n On your own site, you make a post that links to theirs with some comment like \"Nice post!\". We'll call that \"your post\".\n \n Assuming that you both \"have Webmention support\", you might check their post a little later and see a nice summary of your post as a comment below their content.\n \n\n However, for a webmention to \"succeed\", a lot of coordination needs to happen.\n\n On your side:\n \n\n\n You publish \"your post\" which links to \"their post\". So far, so good, you probably publish links to your site all the time.\n \n\n When that post is live, you can try to send a webmention. How do you do that? It depends.\n\n From here, it's pretty much out of your hands. On their side:\n \n\n\n Their post needs to advertise the URL of a service that will accept them.\n \n\n \n That service checks that your post is a real post on the web, and that it contains a link to their post and it ... stores it somewhere. Maybe it goes into a moderation queue?\n \n\nSo then they have the webmention, but to actually display it, their site must:\nPull your post out of wherever their webmentions are stored.\n Somehow understand what your post \"is\".\n \n Render that into their page.\n \n\nWhen I see folks posting \"I added Webmentions to my site\" I want to believe that they have some version of all of the bullet points above. But, there are lots of incompletes.\n\n A list, without references, of partial Webmention support I have seen\n \n\nThe Junk Drawer\nSigning up for a receiving service like webmention.io ... and that's it. Often announced alongside a sentence like \"Next up I'll figure out how to display them!\" This brings to mind with images of the warehouse at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark, or a house filled to the ceiling with stacks of moldy newspapers.\n\n There are, I recognize, lots of good reasons not to display webmentions, beyond some of the technical speedbumps and pitfalls I talk about below. For example there are a lot of unanswered questions and not-yet-built tools and services for dealing with moderation and abuse.\n \n\n\"Why didn't my reply show up on your site?\"\n\n Static sites are back and I love it. But if there's one thing that static sites do extremely poorly it is responding dynamically to outside events. Some static sites (including my own!) will save webmentions as the come in, but won't display them until the next time a post is added or modified on the site.\n \n\n\n \"Why does my reply look weird on your site?\"\n \n\nFrom services to command line tools to fancy build hooks on your fancy hosting service, there are many ways to automate sending webmentions. But unless the receiving end can understand the content of your post, it might not show up as you intended, or at all, on the receiving end. Current best practices would have you add some extra markup to your post so that the receiver can know that it is a reply, or a like, or an RSVP, or something else. This is a hard coordination problem between your site and theirs! In fact there is a whole community and standards process for figuring out how to do these things!\nMaking sure your posts have the \"correct\" markup to look like you want can be difficult even for developers writing their own HTML. Tools like indiewebify.me, Monocle's preview, and microformats.io can help if you are getting your hands dirty. It's much harder for folks that just redesigned their site with a new WordPress theme.\n\n Bridgy Over Troubled Waters\n \n\nBridgy is an absolutely incredible suite of services provided by Ryan, also for free, for the community.\nWith the power of Bridgy Backfeed you can use Webmention to feed replies, likes, and reposts from your Twitter tweets to their corresponding post on your own site! This works despite the fact that twitter.com does not link to your website because Bridgy generates little \"bridge\" pages for which to send webmentions. And it's just a little bit of tweaking to have your Webmention display handle the quirks.\nWith the power of Bridge Publish you can use Webmention to automatically copy posts from your website directly to social media silos like Twitter! You do this by hiding a link to Bridgy in your post, which sends a Webmention to Bridgy, and then Bridgy parses your post to understand it and figure out which bits to tweet. And then Bridgy responds with info about your new tweet. And it's just a little bit of tweaking to have your Webmention sender handle those quirks and update your post with that link.\n\n With the power of Bridge Fed you can use Webmention to automatically copy posts from your website directly into The Fediverse where yadda yadda yadda. And it's just a bit of tweaking to have your Webmention yadda yadda yadda yadda. \ud83d\ude29 I've tired myself out.\n \n\n\n These are all fantastic things that are build on top of Webmention but that I often feel are conflated with Webmention.\n \n\n\"Just let JavaScript do it!\"\nThis one is a bit... unfair on my part. In fact, I think this setup is the best you can get for the least effort, and I encourage folks to go for it. It looks like this:\nRegister with webmention.io to receive, verify, and store your webmentions.\n Put webmention.js in the template for your posts.\n\n I love webmention.io and use it myself. It is an amazing community resource run by Aaron at no charge! Kevin's mention.tech is another great tool, as is VoxPelli's webmention.herokuapp.com. By configuring one of them to accept webmentions on your behalf you save a lot of trouble. They provide APIs that let you pull out the mentions for pages across your site.\n \n\nSimilarly, webmention.js is a really great tool by fluffy that hides a lot of complexity and forethought about how to display webmentions with a single JavaScript include.\n\n All that said, I have some issues with this particular combo long-term because all the fetching and display of webmentions happens in the browser of the person viewing your post.\n \n\n\n If 1,000 people visit your post, that's 1,000 requests to webmention.io, putting load on a service being run by one individual for free.\n \n\nThis setup also means that the webmentions for a post aren't included in the original HTML. So, if your site sends a webmention and wants to check back automatically to see if it's shown up, but their site only displays webmentions via JavaScript, your site will never see it. Likewise, it becomes much harder to keep track of reply chains, for example.\nWhy are you being such a downer about this?\nDespite, apparently, being a bit salty today, I really do get excited about Webmention, how it's being used in so many ways to connect independent sites, and new ways it can be used in the future.\nI'm worried, a bit, that \"Webmention\" is starting to lose its meaning in conversation. It's starting to feel like a shorthand that hides important details.\nMaybe Webmention can be thought of as less of a \"building block\" and more like a glue. You can do so many things with glue, like combining a bunch of planks into a table, or building a parade float sculpture with papier-m\u00e2ch\u00e9, or doctoring the photo in a passport!\n\n You wouldn't call them all \"glue\".",
"html": "<p>I have a great fondness for <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/building-blocks\">IndieWeb building blocks</a> and <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/Webmention\">Webmention</a> is a wonderful meta-building-block that connects so many individual websites together.</p>\n<p>\n Obligatory \"what is Webmention?\": it's a <a href=\"https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/\">specification</a> that describes a way to \"tell\" a website that some document out on the web links to one of the pages on that site. \n <br /></p>\n<p>Sound simple? It is! Perhaps even <i>suspiciously simple</i>. Webmention enables whole new kinds of interactions between sites (some <a href=\"https://alistapart.com/article/webmentions-enabling-better-communication-on-the-internet/\">great examples in this A List Apart piece</a>). Unfortunately, almost all of the coordination to support these interactions happen <i>outside</i> of the \"Webmention\" spec itself.</p>\n<p>So, when I see blog post titles like these I am not sure exactly what to expect:</p>\n<ul><li><a href=\"https://www.kappawingman.com/posts/webdev/2020/07/15/integrating-webmention-with-my-blog/\">Integrating Webmention with my blog</a></li>\n <li><a href=\"https://chezsoi.org/lucas/blog/pelican-pingback-and-webmentions.html\">Pelican, Pingback and Webmentions</a></li>\n <li><a href=\"https://boffosocko.com/2020/04/14/webmention-for-tiddlywiki-to-enable-website-to-website-notifications-and-communication/\">Webmention for TiddlyWiki to enable website to website notifications and communication</a></li>\n <li>and this clickbait sensation: <a href=\"https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/setup-webmention.html\">Add Webmention support to your website in ten minutes</a>\n</li>\n</ul><p>\n There are many more like this, I just grabbed a handful off the last few pages of <a href=\"https://news.indieweb.org/en\">news.indieweb.org</a>.\n <br /></p>\n<p>These examples and many more are referring to the most talked-about use of Webmention: enabling site-to-site comments and responses, like a <a href=\"https://nicolas-hoizey.com/articles/2017/07/27/so-long-disqus-hello-webmentions/\">souped-up independent alternative to terrible embeds like Disqus</a>.</p>\n<p>This may sound like a simple feature! We might expect it to look like this:</p>\n<ul><li>You see a post on the web that you like. Let's call that \"their post\".</li>\n <li>On your own site, you make a post that links to theirs with some comment like \"Nice post!\". We'll call that \"your post\".</li>\n <li>\n Assuming that you both \"have Webmention support\", you might check their post a little later and see a nice summary of your post as a comment below their content.\n <br /></li>\n</ul><p> However, for a webmention to \"succeed\", a lot of coordination needs to happen.</p>\n<p>\n On your side:\n <br /></p>\n<ul><li>\n You publish \"your post\" which links to \"their post\". So far, so good, you probably publish links to your site all the time.\n <br /></li>\n <li>When that post is live, you can try to send a webmention. How do you do that? <i>It depends</i>.</li>\n</ul><p>\n From here, it's pretty much out of your hands. On their side:\n <br /></p>\n<ul><li>\n Their post needs to advertise the URL of a service that will accept them.\n <br /></li>\n <li>\n That service checks that your post is a real post on the web, and that it contains a link to their post and it ... stores it somewhere. Maybe it goes into a moderation queue?\n <br /></li>\n</ul><p>So then they <i>have</i> the webmention, but to actually <i>display </i>it, their site must:</p>\n<ul><li>Pull your post out of wherever their webmentions are stored.</li>\n <li>Somehow <i>understand</i> what your post \"<i>is</i>\".</li>\n <li>\n Render that into their page.\n <br /></li>\n</ul><p>When I see folks posting \"I added Webmentions to my site\" I want to believe that they have some version of all of the bullet points above. But, there are lots of incompletes.</p>\n<h2>\n A list, without references, of partial Webmention support I have seen\n <br /></h2>\n<h3>The Junk Drawer</h3>\n<p>Signing up for a receiving service like <a href=\"https://webmention.io/\">webmention.io</a> ... and that's it. Often announced alongside a sentence like \"Next up I'll figure out how to display them!\" This brings to mind with images of the warehouse at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark, or a house filled to the ceiling with stacks of moldy newspapers.</p>\n<p>\n There are, I recognize, lots of good reasons <i>not</i> to display webmentions, beyond some of the technical speedbumps and pitfalls I talk about below. For example there are a lot of unanswered questions and not-yet-built tools and services for dealing with moderation and abuse.\n <br /></p>\n<h3>\"Why didn't my reply show up on your site?\"</h3>\n<p>\n <a href=\"https://mxb.dev/blog/the-return-of-the-90s-web/\">Static sites are back</a> and I love it. But if there's one thing that static sites do extremely poorly it is responding dynamically to outside events. Some static sites (including my own!) will save webmentions as the come in, but won't display them until the next time a post is added or modified on the site.\n <br /></p>\n<h3>\n \"Why does my reply look weird on your site?\"\n <br /></h3>\n<p>From <a href=\"https://webmention.app/\">services</a> to <a href=\"https://jmac.org/whim/\">command line tools</a> to <a href=\"https://www.jvt.me/posts/2019/09/10/webmentions-on-deploy/\">fancy build hooks on your fancy hosting service</a>, there are many ways to automate sending webmentions. But unless the receiving end can understand the content of your post, it might not show up as you intended, or at all, on the receiving end. Current best practices would have you <a href=\"https://aaronparecki.com/2018/06/30/11/your-first-webmention\">add some extra markup to your post</a> so that the receiver can know that it is a reply, or a like, or an RSVP, or something else. This is a hard coordination problem between your site and theirs! In fact <a href=\"http://microformats.org/\">there is a whole community and standards process for figuring out how to do these things</a>!</p>\n<p>Making sure your posts have the \"correct\" markup to look like you want can be difficult even for developers writing their own HTML. Tools like <a href=\"https://indiewebify.me/\">indiewebify.me</a>, <a href=\"https://monocle.p3k.io/preview\">Monocle's preview</a>, and <a href=\"https://microformats.io/\">microformats.io</a> can help if you are getting your hands dirty. It's much harder for folks that just redesigned their site with a new WordPress theme.</p>\n<h3>\n Bridgy Over Troubled Waters\n <br /></h3>\n<p><a href=\"https://brid.gy/\">Bridgy</a> is an <i>absolutely incredible</i> suite of services provided by <a href=\"https://snarfed.org/\">Ryan</a>, also for free, for the community.</p>\n<p>With the power of Bridgy Backfeed you can use Webmention to feed replies, likes, and reposts from your Twitter tweets to their corresponding post on your own site! This works despite the fact that twitter.com <i>does not link to your website</i> because Bridgy generates little \"bridge\" pages for which to send webmentions. And it's just a little bit of tweaking to have your Webmention display handle the quirks.</p>\n<p>With the power of Bridge Publish you can use Webmention to automatically copy posts from your website directly to social media silos like Twitter! You do this by hiding a link to Bridgy in your post, which sends a Webmention to Bridgy, and then Bridgy parses your post to <i>understand</i> it and figure out which bits to tweet. And then Bridgy responds with info about your new tweet. And it's just a little bit of tweaking to have your Webmention sender handle those quirks and update your post with that link.</p>\n<p>\n With the power of Bridge Fed you can use Webmention to automatically copy posts from your website directly into The Fediverse where yadda yadda yadda. And it's just a bit of tweaking to have your Webmention yadda yadda yadda yadda. \ud83d\ude29 I've tired myself out.\n <br /></p>\n<p>\n These are all fantastic things that are build <i>on top of Webmention</i> but that I often feel are <i>conflated with Webmention</i>.\n <br /></p>\n<h3>\"Just let JavaScript do it!\"</h3>\n<p>This one is a bit... unfair on my part. In fact, I think this setup is the best you can get for the least effort, and I encourage folks to go for it. It looks like this:</p>\n<ul><li>Register with webmention.io to receive, verify, and store your webmentions.</li>\n <li>Put <a href=\"https://github.com/PlaidWeb/webmention.js/\">webmention.js</a> in the template for your posts.</li>\n</ul><p>\n I love webmention.io and use it myself. It is an amazing community resource run by <a href=\"https://aaronparecki.com/\">Aaron</a> at no charge! <a href=\"http://www.kevinmarks.com/\">Kevin</a>'s <a href=\"http://mention.tech/\">mention.tech</a> is another great tool, as is <a href=\"http://voxpelli.com/\">VoxPelli</a>'s <a href=\"https://webmention.herokuapp.com/\">webmention.herokuapp.com</a>. By configuring one of them to accept webmentions on your behalf you save a lot of trouble. They provide APIs that let you pull out the mentions for pages across your site.\n <br /></p>\n<p>Similarly, webmention.js is a really great tool by <a href=\"https://beesbuzz.biz/\">fluffy</a> that hides a lot of complexity and forethought about how to display webmentions with a single JavaScript include.</p>\n<p>\n All that said, I have some issues with this particular combo long-term because all the fetching and display of webmentions happens in the browser of the person viewing your post.\n <br /></p>\n<p>\n If 1,000 people visit your post, that's 1,000 requests to webmention.io, putting load on a service being run by <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/single_point_of_aaron\">one individual</a> for free.\n <br /></p>\n<p>This setup also means that the webmentions for a post aren't included in the original HTML. So, if your site sends a webmention and wants to check back automatically to see if it's shown up, but their site only displays webmentions via JavaScript, your site will never see it. Likewise, it becomes much harder to keep track of <a href=\"https://indieweb.org/reply-chain\">reply chains</a>, for example.</p>\n<h2>Why are you being such a downer about this?</h2>\n<p>Despite, apparently, being <i>a bit salty</i> today, I really do get excited about Webmention, how it's being used in so many ways to connect independent sites, and new ways it can be used in the future.</p>\n<p>I'm worried, a bit, that \"Webmention\" is starting to lose its meaning in conversation. It's starting to feel like a shorthand that hides important details.</p>\n<p>Maybe Webmention can be thought of as less of a \"building block\" and more like a glue. You can do so many things with glue, like combining a bunch of planks into a table, or building a parade float sculpture with papier-m\u00e2ch\u00e9, or doctoring the photo in a passport!</p>\n<p>\n You wouldn't call them all \"glue\".\n <br /></p>"
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I need to make sure I grab something to eat and finish my demo before the homebrew website club tonight! https://events.indieweb.org/2020/07/homebrew-website-club-west-coast-UWgdEMwxDSQI
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The IndieWeb doesn’t have “users”, lol. It’s all people. No VC fluff, no “we gotta hit the KPI!”. People-centric and driven.
But nah, these events are moments to study and reflect on. Smugness helps no one (since again, we’re focused on people).
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"text": "The IndieWeb doesn\u2019t have \u201cusers\u201d, lol. It\u2019s all people. No VC fluff, no \u201cwe gotta hit the KPI!\u201d. People-centric and driven.But nah, these events are moments to study and reflect on. Smugness helps no one (since again, we\u2019re focused on people).",
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